So go figure, I had another religious debate with someone over the weekend. It went something like this. HIM: I have a personal relationship with god and someone like you will never understand! Evil Me: I have a personal relationship with reality and someone like you choose to ignore and not try to understand. HIM: Your reality will only misguide you, and by the time you realize, it will be too late. Evil Me: Too late for what? To join the party in heaven? How do you know heaven exist? Have you been there before? Do you know someone that's been there before and came back to tell you all about it? Or are you going off by the bible? HIM: When you have a special relationship with god, he talks to you and tells you things. That's why I know god is real. I can sense him all around me and hear him in my heart. Of course YOU will only hear the devil. This went on for about an hour before the Pacman Fight. It was like talking to a brick wall so both Pacquaio and I lost that night! But we know who really won!! hahaha So this is why I brought up the subject and like to share my thoughts on it and see what you guys think. I would've told this guy the same thing I am about to write. But it wouldn't have matter because he was so brain washed. So here's my take on it. The brain (not only the human version) builds models of other individuals. It's a function necessary for social animals so we can predict how others might react to us. We do this all the time. Right now, you can imagine meeting Bruce Lee, despite the fact he's long dead, and having a conversation with him. The fact we build models is part of why we suffer anguish when someone dies. Just because an individual is dead, the model you have constructed in your brain of that person remains, and it causes us tremendous cognitive dissonance. In our brains, they're very much alive. Think about it. If religious people truly believe their loved ones goes to heaven and live forever, why are they every bit as sad as we are when our loved ones die? Death would be a wonderful thing for them wouldn't it? That is why you think you can talk to a god. And in the case of a god, you're consciously trying to reach your higher brain areas by praying or meditating. That's why you think your god is really smart. He thinks the same things you do, only the apparently wiser version. Just try asking your god the answer to a complex math problem that you couldn't possibly solve without a calculator. You'll find your god happens to be as crappy at math as you are. So IMHO, people who claims to be able to talk to god....well.......It's all in your head.
I don't see the difference between talking to god, and making up an imaginary figure to speak to. I also wonder why murderous people who say that God told them to murder people is only crazy talk. Why are we not rewarding them for carrying god's words? Why does god take credit for only the good things despite of the very violent and revengeful nature.
Shit, how does he do it? I'd love to be able to talk to God. The first thing I'll ask him is: What the fuck was he smoking when he made Adam and Eve two idiots who were given the ability to reproduce. Fuck, if you're told the Pandora's Box contains the evil of the world, why in the living fuck would you open it. A sensible moron would be smart enough to stay away from it and not even touch it with a ten foot pole. Second question is, even after he wiped human kind down to Noah and his wife, how the fuck do idiots still manage to populate this Earth? You'd figure people would do shit correctly, given such a huge second chance. And lastly, I'd love to understand his business model for the existence of an eternal Hell, and a Heaven that accepts forgiven criminals. Absolutely baffling. God would make for a terrible company CEO.
Well if you ask the faithful, they will say those who hear voices that kill are hearing the devil not god! And the bad things that happen are god's will and he has a plan for everything. What really bothers me are those politicians who hear god and say god told them to run for president and a flock of followers just yuck that shit up. Thank goodness there are still people with common sense that saw through all that religious crap. Can you imagine if Perry, Santorum or Bachmann running this country?
@CrazyMofo Interesting. I still wonder why bad things that were carried out by someone are not rewarded and praised as they are carrying out plans. Shouldn't we reward those people who rape and murder since it's part of the great plan? I am in no surprise that a lot of people flock to the religious(lip service or not) politicians. I'm sure off camera, they are probably not the religious type at all, and rather use the religion argument to fool people. I also believe that religious people are the easiest type of people to fool. It's rather disturbing to know how easily they are swayed. Just think of all the possibilities with the additional brainwash
Well unless they are the type of people like the Westboro Baptist church, I doubt anyone would praise these type of behaviors. those freaks at Westboro praise god for Tsunami, military personals that get killed, cancer and aid's victims are all god's great plan to cleanse this world. I don't think the standard religious peeps would do such a thing because it just makes them look stupid. It may be true for Perry and Bachmann not being as christian like when they are off cameras. But I think Santorum is the real deal! And Mitt? He really do wear the magic underwear!!! LOL
It just makes sense that anyone of that religion or any monothesic religions would need to reward those people doing good or bad though. lol magic underwear. I would like to purchase these.
I was watching some Star Trek clips on Youtube (call me a geek, but Star Trek contains more philosophical content than any other broadcasted shows, IMO), and I came across the following: DS9 episode: Odo: Has it ever occurred to you that the reason you believe the Founders are gods is because that's what they want you to believe? That they built it into your genetic code? Weyoun 6: Of course they did. That's what gods do. After all, why be a god if there's no one to worship you? This draws a parallel to religions with a deity. Some of us feel like the existence of a "God" is nothing more than fiction. We cannot currently prove, nor disprove the existence of "God". However, what concerns me more is that even if a disprove was found, the problem is not in the non-existence of "God", but rather, the need for human beings to submit to the idea of "God". I think that it is not the existence of God that's the problem, it's the idea. And fighting an idea is a daunting task. Funny enough, fighting the idea of a "God" is also a storyline that was explored in another Star Trek TNG episode. For Trekkers out there, I'm referring to the Kay'les clone episode.
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION OF LEVELS NOTE: for the basic technical definitions re C/consciousness versus intellect click here ... Category 7--Avatar: The highest Spiritual attainment. Persons, e.g., Jesus, in this Mystical state have been able to reach a quality of UNITY by application of their will. They as observer, that which they observe and the process of observing become ONE. This is a profoundly transcendent experience, a complete fulfillment of ECSTASY, KNOWING and LOVE. The separated person becomes ONE with the Totality of GOD. Here occurs the permanent death of the ego, and where one's Consciousness becomes transformed into an AT-ONE-MENT with a complete and full Spiritual CONSCIOUSNESS. This achievement is called Samadhi by the Hindus. It is created by means of the discipline of will called "one-pointed" concentration. This discipline permits achievement of a state of completely absent ego which in turn which permits willful UNITY with the ONE. Achievement of this state is prelude to that ephemeral state of permanent bliss the Buddha called Nirvana. This achievement is in fact the ultimate goal and achievement of the deepest, most extended and most disciplined practice of meditation or prayer. Examples include Pythagoras, Buddha, Laotse, and the most recent, Jesus. ... Category 6--Mystic (Sage, Apostle, or Messenger): In this state, the individual has the experience of themselves as Consciousness departing their physical body and entering into a larger realm of Spiritual Order. There their experience is as though they were still a physical entity. In these Dialogues, this realm is called the Super Consciousness. In this SuperOrdinate state they can approach becoming ONE with the Cosmos, but still feel themselves as a participant in and not a UNITY experience of Oneness. This is a state of finding one's self experiencing enormous but ineffable realms of Spiritual Realities, transcendent visions, profound states of Noetic (complete Knowing) Consciousness, landscaped splendor, ephemeral beauty of light and sound, extraordinary Peace and LOVE, all shared amidst the Loving Presence of Spiritual Others. In addition to achieving this state through meditation, individuals who have experienced what is called NDE (Near Death Experiences) have also been brought to this state by externally imposed physical trauma, through either severe illness or injury. In such cases, their beating heart and breathing has temporarily stilled. But the identical state may be achieved by Mystics in the early stages of their intentional development as did the Yoga named Milarepa whose journey is summarized in Dialogue 6. [visit allegory] Blavatsky is an example who apparently achieved this level of development from which she was guided to make her literary contributions to the world. [ref The Secret Doctrine] From the descriptions they provide, both David Hawkins [1995] and Richard Bucke [1923] apparently have reached this state. Access to this stage may be given as a gift, by "Grace" as happened to Edgar Cayce, the "Sleeping Prophet." [Sterns, 1967] After suffering a severe illness he found he was able to enter into a Noetic relationship with the Super Consciousness. In a trance state of deep meditation he provided many verifiable answers to a variety of questions which he gave to his observer and transcribed. He was unable to remember these details himself upon awakening from his trance. ... Category 5--Disciple: In this state, a lower order Mystical discipline, emotional trauma, (or Grace) instantly yields a completely rearranged and expanded mental consciousness. There is an awakened Knowing that one can have access to higher realms. One's Knows they have a capability of reaching them but must confront the lack of required discipline. The relationship among life's events, processes, experiences and one's comprehension and interpretation of them abruptly becomes coherent, meaningful and clear. One experiences a strong sense of Illumination and being protected, guided and sustained in an atmosphere of profound peace, love and trust. The meaning of suffering is clarified. Any harm, injustice or suffering that one may have suffered is interpreted as a contribution to Spiritual development, a necessary suffering in preparing one's mind and Soul for a transformation. The place one finds one's self in life is given direction, meaning and excitement, and one joyfully feels duty-bound to fulfill this destiny. However, at this level of Mystical experience, one still suffers from the momentum and burdens of one's prior obsessive mental and emotional consciousness. One still remains vulnerable to succumbing to the ebb and flow of sensate feelings such as resentment, fear, anger, distrust, and sensual and erotic lust. There remains a residual dependence on that damning illusion that everything has to be rational, or "make sense." Once the Category 3 Illumination occurs, the blessed one relentlessly pursues the distant and elusive but promised experience of the Whole. She/he begins to develop the necessary mental and Spiritual discipline and progressively enters with deepening faith and trust into the willful death of their ego. In this commitment they "die daily." Their life is transformed into one of unconditional Love forgiveness, compassion, trust in and service to others. Once begun, the transformation does not stop. For those who have experienced one of these first three categories of Mystical experience, nothing need be said for them to relate to others who have enjoyed such events. For those who have not yet experienced even the least of these three levels of Mystical experience, not enough can be said to convince their rational minds of the reality of it, that others have experienced it, or that they have their own potential to experience it. Does this feel familiar? ... Category 4--Spiritually Inclined: At this pre transcendent level prior to some form of a actual Mystical Illumination, one may have an intuitive sense and a mental picture that creates in the mind's consciousness the necessity of GOD and one's innate capacity to relate to that POWER. The nature of the vision varies with the individual's life experience. One may believe on simple faith from the teachings of others. But mostly one is convinced by the obvious incredible density, complexity, subtly and regularity of visible nature and the cosmos. Such persons may experience God as the workings of nature. Such a person can approach GOD as an intellectual belief or simple faith in GOD's impersonal existence. At this level one is most vulnerable to Spiritual abuse at the hands of corrupt religious practices. One's intuitive sense becomes sufficiently empowered and compelled to resist, if not oppose, religionist claims describing an external, simplified, human like anthropomorphic definition of God. God somehow becomes acceptable only as a comprehensive, dispassionate and ineffable but real Force. For those Spiritually quickened at this level, using eastern terminology, in this state they remain hostage to a kind of mental consciousness called Samsara. Samsara is the state of bondage to mental illusion and vulnerability to seduction or temptation of the senses (Maya.) Maya condemns one to a continuing cycles of birth, death and rebirth, the endless wheel of Karma (Cause and Effect). Such believers are easily susceptible to the seduction of secular power, and may apply their religion to that purpose. ... Category 3--Believer: At this level, God exists on faith and is usually accepted as being externally located in some anthropomorphic form and must be described and related to in familiar human terms. This God has a personality defined by a variety of human qualities--such as the compassionate capacity to love and forgive, but also the wrathful capacity for vengeance and destruction. This God must be constantly feared and appeased. Persons at this level are vulnerable to being cajoled and coerced by the religious leaders of certain faith groups or cults. Such a person must apply their life decisions to accommodate and cope with various levels of guilt and fear due to admitted or possible violations of the tenets of their faith. They may defensively feel themselves and their group to be "chosen" and superior to and above all others. They may endure feeling vulnerable to retribution and harm by being cast out and forsaken either by their God's wrathful justice or by his mere caprice. Others are judged, approved or disapproved, by the earnestness of their acceptance of the group's definitions and dogma. Because of incipient fear and doubt, believers at this level must defend their God, must aggressively promote his acceptance, and must acquire adherents to their vision. Disloyalty to the beliefs of the group lead to persecution, banishment and in some cases death. They must act to discredit, dilute, diminish or even destroy all unbelievers or belief systems that appear to compete with theirs, or those who are unfaithful to their teachings and demands. Here one most likely finds the zealots and the cultists. ... Category 2. Primitive Structures and Processes: but God must take on explicit form of various visible structural formations found in one's experience. These can be geologic formations, animals or plants to which a personality and selected human qualities are assigned. This externalized god or gods have various capricious expressions of magical or supernatural powers. They must be served or appeased by formal ritual and/or by various informal obsessions in order to assure that their powers are controlled, and will treat the believers kindly, promote their interests, or at least preserve them from harm. ... Category 1--Atheist: Absence of Spiritual awareness. For persons at this level, there is no god of any kind. There is only the mechanical and dispassionate existential order of the universe. One is caught up in this as a kind of biological machine. Metaphysical questions of a SuperOrdinate first cause based on a "Being" or Creator, and a presumption of continuity to a post death Consciousness experience are presumed not to be possible. Such claims are dismissed or defined as "silly" or irrelevant and are typically refused debate. While abstract concepts descriptive of the psychology of personality and mind may be acceptable, these are always tied to the biological brain and nervous system. Abstractions such as "creativity" only exist in reference to abstract bio-mechanical processes which are dismissed as unknown only because of their subtly and complexity. Alleged spiritual or mystical experiences are dismissed as artifacts of body chemistry. Knowledge can only be trusted when it is validated by one or more of the senses or their technological extensions. Deepak Chopra has called this obsession the "superstition of science" [1990a, op cit.] All claims as to the existence of any higher order, ineffable or transcendent intelligence or force, are dismissed as magic, supernatural and incredible. Persons of this category can become sociopathic or psychopathic. They may be especially intractable and militant when they have been physically, emotionally and Spiritually abused as children. Spiritual abuse includes being forced to endure the religious or other emotional excesses of parents and adults who are arrested at Category 3 or 2 consciousness. But such person's remain entirely capable of psycho pathological invoking religious icons and imagery to manipulate the faithful in order to achieve antithetical personal or political ends.
This is a quite good question. Now before answering this question, think about this: Isn't it good to know/think that someone is listening to your worries/prayers? I think everyone needs someone to listen to them and their feelings. Someone who really listen.
It is good to have someone to listen to you. But I prefer someone I can see and hear and can provide meaningful advice. Praying is basically talking to yourself and think or hope someone is actually listening. There is no proof that prayers work. Ask yourself this. Why does someone who lost their keys, prays and god helps them find it. But the kid who is starving in Africa prays everyday for food and can't get a drop of fresh water?
Maybe I'll sound like a party pooper, but I believe everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want. So why make a conflict out of what other people believe in? Just let'em be... The topic of religion/god can go on for years between non-believers and believers. SO the hour you spent.. just take it as a cue that if another one of these discussions sparks, it'll take another hour out of your day. We all believe in different things, so no use forcing beliefs on others. Or force them to understand. Don't get me wrong.. Im a very logical person and don't believe in religion. Just wanted to share the thought. Being upset is normal. Even if they did went to heaven, won't you miss them in your current life?
Not trying to force anything on anyone. Just a simple question for discussion. This is a place to discuss such topics right? Also your profile quote says it all!!! Learn without thinking begets ignorance. Think without learning is dangerous. Just don't want innocent people to become ignorant or harming themselves for not learning!
