It's eerily similar how the same thing occurs in engineering. I've always thought the same, how a good candidate is represented by their ability to run things, to plan, to manage and most importantly, to have leadership skills. If I could show you my resume, 4 of my 5 last resume revisions OOZES leadership experience, because I thought (and still think) exactly like you did. I've always thought, "hey, I've got way more leadership experience than any average coder, they're bound to hire me right?". Turns out I was wrong, really wrong. Having leadership experience is exceptional. But when we are new graduates and starting out, having too much experience, particularly leadership and ambition, is very dangerous, especially if the prospect hiring manager is lower on the food chain. A) Junior managers, low level managers (in general), are afraid that because you are so ambitious and are full of leadership experience, that you compete with them for their own jobs. It sounds fucking ridiculous and retarded, but sadly, that's the case (I'm still mindblown about it). B) Being so ambitious as we are, employers are afraid we will move on to different jobs. From their point of view, if a hired candidate doesn't work for a period of time and moves on to another position, that's a loss for the business. You and I may say we are willing work at that job for a long period of time, but they don't know that and there's no way for them to get a guarantee that we won't take off. C) Low level managers are inexperienced themselves, which is why they are low level managers lol (I'm sorry low level managers). And as such, they don't understand how to gauge talent, leadership and potential. Senior managers and executive managers however, will love to hire people like you because they understand the importance. The problem is, our target market are low level managers, so we need to tone down our capabilities lol. So basically, having your level of ambition and leadership ability is great, but it is at the wrong time. The approach I'm attempting right now is as negiq once said before, take whatever comes to you. Be patient, tank through it, get your foot in the door. Once in, you can do what you do best in making sure that you move up quickly.
Yeah, I've heard about how people will be threatened by you, cause you could take their jobs, etc. It's crazy, but I'm sure it's something we'll eventually deal with too? I understand that we have to start from the bottom and work our way up. I just feel incredibly stubborn about it. It's funny, cause our professors teach us to shoot for the stars and aim high. But once we graduate, we fall so hard on our asses. Actually, this reminds me of my Team Leader back in Alberta. She's supervisor now (yay her...) younger than me, 19 this year? Straight out of High school, but no one really liked her. She wanted to show that she had leadership, which she definitely did, but in doing so, she really stepped on peoples toes.
Haha yea. Though I'd like to say that I would totally hire someone who I think has greater potential than me. I'm competitive as hell, and someone better would help me push to become better myself. I'm thinking profs teach that way because there are so many people with different walks of life. To those that already adopt that mentality, it merely boosts their ego and ambition to dangerous levels. But the majority lack it, so profs typically advise that to the other group of people lol. Anyway, life is about finding the right balance. You can't be too ambitious, but you can't lack ambition either. Gotta find that sweet spot lol
@Person - talking over the phone doesn't help much. You gotta head on over there and speak with them. Believe me ... sometimes having the face and the application really helps. Going over there also give you a chance to observe the surrounding, ask questions, and see if you fit into the group. You're applying for front desk positions so talking shouldn't be an obstacle for you. Internship is no threat to anyone. Being with the com, going over there, and checking/talking show that you're serious and enthusiastic about it. @Dan - when you have a family, stability is important. You can't hire someone whom might be a threat to your job. That's silly. All professors lie. Don't listen to them. I heard so many of them said, we are here to help you but you gotta reach out to us first. When you do that, they will tell you ... sorry, I don't this or that or can't help you this or that or don't have much time now. The reality is that they will not make any effort to help you unless they too gain some benefits such as publicity or awards. There are so many students and if everyone approach them for help, then they are dead busy just dealing with the students. All shows empty gesture only.
Certainly lol, though I don't have a family yet, so I'm speaking from the perspective of a Maverick . However with nothing to lose, if I can cultivate the ability to ensure stability, while at the same time better myself AND better the company I work for by hiring QUALITY employees, it's a win-win-win.
There's no win-win-win situation in the work place. Someone got lose for someone to win. Why do you think there's so much office ? As you go higher on the ladder, you will be more careful who you hire on the bottom ... Too smart (out), too aggressive (out), too emotional (out) ... You make somehow you are the star on the team ... Stand out as a leader ... Anyway, I am sure you'll learn when you get there. All I said now might sound silly or even stupid to you.
I think as a student, only working for the summer, I'm not much of a threat to any of the Managers who hire me, since I can't even be promoted in the 4 months I work there. I'm not in co-op for my program, so I can't sign a year contract until I graduate. But it'll definitely be something I'll worry about eventually. Neq, Alberta is a 4 hour flight from where I live. I'm not going to or can even afford to spend $700 on tickets just to speak with them. Phone is the best I have with them. But they always hire through phones and everything. Phones won't really get me anywhere, but at the time, before I got the job in Muskoka, Ontario, I was treating it as a stepping stone into Front Desk. With the Muskoka property, I'm working Front Desk. As of right now, I'll be going to Muskoka this summer. At the end of August, I'll have to think about where to proceed for summer 2014.
Phew .. nice to finally use a computer to type ...lol @Person .. sorry, I thought you applied for somewhere closed by home; not far away. People usually intern somewhere close to home so that when they graduate, there will be local connections for a job. Furthermore, interning away from home actually cost you money when you should be saving for school. @Dan .. it's not a shame. It's survival. Most people stay at a job post for a period of time (no more than 5 yrs) before they either go else where for further development or move up on the ladder or transfer into another department. Unless you work in the governmental agency where there is absolutely no growth, most people change job from time to time in corporate. Survival in corporate America means to constantly fight for high salary, good benefits, and most important of all, POWER. People with the three things I mentioned above are usually harder to control (bad choice of words but mind's blank ..lol) because they, most of the time, have their own agenda/prob. It's not just about hiring people that make you stands out as a leader but also able to work cooperatively as a contributing member of your team.
And therein lies the shame. When it comes to survival, yea I get it. Ensuring steady income for the purpose of living is critical. Hell, my own family is in that situation right now, having limited income. However the greed for power only arises once survival is assured and stable. When you're in survival mode, you are in no position to make demands and hunger for power. There's the hunger for stability, yes, but power hunger only arises when stability is assured. We need not look further than history. Now I'm not saying fighting for power is bad, heck, I want to move up quickly as well. Where the shame comes in is this: people care more about fighting for power over the prosperity of the business, instead of balancing the two. You can still "fight for power", while improving the state of your employer's business. You hire individuals who can take your employer's business further. They may pose a "threat", yes, but you just have to work harder to make sure that doesn't happen. The TL;DR is this, I hunger for power as well, and I hunger a lot. But I care for my employer's business just as much, because the prosperity of my employer's business equates to my own prosperity with my employer. However I won't be so egotistic as to have an unquenchable hunger for power and be selfish to the point that I would refuse to help my employer's business by hiring a quality employee because I don't want to work harder in fear of losing my job. I believe in the dog eats dog world. If I lose my job because the new hiree is better than me, that's because I let it happen by not improving myself and I deserve every bit of it. That's the difference between those who are in their 50s and stuck at low level management, vs those in their 30s, and are at the capacity of executive management or senior leadership of large corporations. Marissa Mayers, Salar Kamangar, Elon Musk to name a few. I don't pretend to be able to reach the success of these folks, but there's no reason to aim higher. You EARN senior leadership because you satisfy business objectives and make the business better, not because you step on others to climb your way to the top at the expense of the company. But hey, I'm fresh out of school. What do I know.
@Dan - The prosperity of your employer's business DOES NOT equate to your own prosperity. All the CEO, CFO, VP, SVP, etc .. are just titles that don't mean shit. Ultimately, it's the ones that sit on the board that determine your fate. In essence, if something f--- up, then you're out the door just as quickly. With that being said, why would anyone wanna care about their employers' prosperity. Of course, that's not to say that you shouldn't try to come up with new products/ideas. You still gotta do your homework ... that's what they paying you. If you look closely at Facebook, the founder did not make it this far by himself. He has lots and lots of help. All the young ones gained all the "director, VP, SVP, etc" titles but do they really know how to run the business without any training or schooling? NO. Yeah, they look all cool and successful with lots of money under their belt but seriously, they still lacking. Look at the board members .. that's what board members do .. connections .. give directions so that com is driving down the right path. Ok .. off topic. Going back .. no I don't see any shame still ... unless it's my own business where growth matters, I see no reason why I have to worry. The board will not let thing fail so easily unless they too don't give a f - about the com .. lol
You're an interesting individual, Negiq. You must be quite high up the corporate ladder, seen and experienced some shit that would cause you to have such a negative outlook on things. Care to share those experiences with us "young ones"? Edit: You'll also notice how I didn't name Mark Zuckerberg or "young ones" like him. He's an entrepreneur. He created his own company, which is admirable, but not the point. I'm talking about those who established themselves in an existing large company, with a structure. That is no easy feat.
Thanks but I am just another average joe. This ain't negative but realistic outlook. As for your reference to those people above; honestly, I don't have a clue who they are and have no interest in reading about them.
Oh shit, so you're just an average joe who's got an answer to everything? You know what people call them? They call them "jackasses" not realists lol. If you don't even care about taking 2 seconds to look up a name to make an educated contribution to a conversation, yet you make statements and generalizing executives, some people like to call them "opinionated jackasses". But hey, I'm just sharing :O
One of the CFO's of Tim Hortons graduated from Guelph (wooo). He worked at Wendy's as a store Manager at one point. It really is interesting to read and hear about their success in the corporate ladder. I hunger for power also, but I also want to be realistic? Or I'm mostly pessimistic. I'm sure it'll be different once I graduate and look for full-time employment. But the past few summers, I worked hard, but nothing to show for it. I understand being a seasonal employee, employees are less likely to invest their time in me, but can they at least make it less obvious? There were co-workers who didn't do as good of a job as I did, but they were full-time, so they were given more attention. It was a little frustrating.
@Dan - I had no clue but I did look them up; just didn't read the details. @Person - I used to like to read about people's success story .. especially those who come from poor background and made it big. However, as I climbed higher and higher and higher up, I felt more lonely and emptied which I think most people wouldn't tell you. Everyday is a battle. High office mean more eyes are out to find your fault; people below afraid to get close to you or pretend to be nice. I had no real friends and my time with family was lessen so much that I didn't even know my daughter had a kindergarten graduation ceremony .. almost missed but didn't ... lol Anyway, long story short .. I stopped trying so hard after I read up on Buddhism. I just go with where ever life takes me .. content with my life and appreciate what I have ... don't wanna slave myself away because of money or for another company. At the end of the day, I live for myself and family; not the company. Seriously, if I drop dead one day, the com just hires someone else to take my place and business as usual .. no one gonna care if I even existed in the com and my contribution. I also wanna mention that being Azn make extra tough .. gotta keep breaking the glass ceiling and when you do, the public put more weight on you to be role model ... all these extra workload (PR and community involvements) ... beyond my scope of work. I just want to live a normal and simple life.
You have made a great point there. Being Buddhist myself, I understand what you're trying to say. In fact I just finished reading "The Monk who sold his Ferrari", and the author did allude to the same point you're making. However, having an "Azn" father who has made it to executive management, yet still manage to live life simply, it's tough, but it's not impossible. It's about finding the right balance. Being a workaholic for monetary gain and power gain is obviously bad. However being able to prioritize and have the focus and concentration to do a task well are the results of applying the Buddhist teachings, according to Buddhist monks and experts. These performances of tasks accumulate to success. The other thing though, is that Buddhism encourages living "simply" and "normally" in order to live life happily. Your post history exudes negativity, not even realism that you state. Even from your last post, it sounds like you're facing some huge difficulty right now and are discouraged. Having experienced the unfortunate things you've experienced (your daughter's graduation), and having realized that striving to get higher in corporate is not good (and I assume you've stopped striving for it), let me ask you this. Are you happy right now? You are absolutely right in that over-ambition is poisonous. It is destructive. It leads to feeling the effects that you've experienced. And I thank you for sharing it, so we can attempt to avoid it. However the lack of ambition is just as poisonous. Living happily and simply is of the utmost importance, but if I were to die tomorrow, I would ask myself: "What have I done that's worth while in my life?", "I've lived happily, I've lived simply, but have I lived a life of continuous learning? Have I challenged myself in difficult situations that allows me to expand my knowledge, grow, and contribute to society? What was my purpose in life?" Living simply and happily is merely 2 of the goals I've set for myself: 1) Live life simply. 2) Live life humbly. 3) Live life by continuous learning, and challenging myself. 4) Live life by contributing to society, not just myself and my own family. 5) Live life with compassion. Your objectives in life might be different than mine, but it honestly feels like you're still not satisfied with your own life objectives. Instead of instructing others on the way they drive to their objectives, it would be great if you could find happiness in your own life. Once you find that absolutely happiness, I would love to hear how you got to that point. That's something everyone strives for.
Happiness is a subjective matter. Not having ambition is not poisonous like you said and no you don't have to make it big to contribute to society. As a taxpayer, I am a contributing member. Changing the world? I don't need to be the president .. just need to recycle (take the time to sort out my trash) .. there are a lot one can do. I can't say that I am used to my current living situation (too slow for me) but I'll adapt. Be content. Everyone's different indeed but having been through that (top exec) .. I am just sharing my experience. There's no right or wrong to how one lives one's life. At the end, you are the one that make the decision and live up to the consequence. I have no problem with that. For me, I recognized it a bit late, got my priorities straightened, and know where I want to go. A master once shared with me that "time is for you to use but not own." (literal translation from Chinese) Simple enough? But its meaning is so much more. Anyway, I don't want to comment on Buddhism with my limited knowledge. All I want to say is that Buddhism woke me up. No, I don't go to temple. It's a form of study just like a college major to me. Very interesting one .. You viewed my posts as negativism but I see it as realism. With different age and environment, we see the same thing yet have different opinion. There's nothing wrong .. part of growing up. Just like some people have wisdom and avoided the waste of time. Okay .. typing with a tablet is killing me .. lol .. not gonna write it long.
Dont do what I did and drop out of every opportunity given to you! army engineer, property developer, electrician, plummer etc and end up working jobs you hate hoping to go in to finance with no experience like people you know did. haha a? :'<
