It's funny how China has grown so much yet its people are still so poor. Worst of all, it still wants to steal islands from other countries like Vietnam and the Philippines. It should take care of its people first ...before investing in other things. All these corrupted officials steal money from the poor and send their children abroad .. while the Chinese back home are suffering. Very sad. I hope China will break up like the USSR .. perhaps that's the best solution. Tibet, Taiwan, and Hong Kong is already a stand alone country anyway.
This is one of the most ironic questions historically, given that Qing China was at one point, the master of what is now modern Korea and Vietnam. There is persistent Chinese emotional attachment to those lands as belonging to China, even as the current political and legal jurisdiction remains otherwise. That is why the Chinese government feels compelled to go after border expansion; it's popular back home and allows distraction from their incompetence (much like what launched the Falklands debacle). As for China every becoming balkanized like the former Yugoslavia or USSR? That's doubtful. Chinese emotional thought vis a vis nationhood remains almost genetic. Just about every Chinese mind is conditioned to the historic idea of a unified China even if the political idea of breakaway republicanism is evident. But insofar as Tibet and Hong Kong? Neither is a standalone country. Tibet is actually a conquered and occupied nation, effectively colonized by the PRC. Hong Kong politically and legally is already a part of the PRC. The only "breakaway" if you want to call it that is Taiwan, which maintains a separate political and military entity not answerable to Beijing.
kind of off topic but the other day i went to a theme park in china, people letting their children urinate around the park. fucking disgusting
Not enough restrooms around or they are just lazy, worst are the older adults that does it. Seen in in the parks sometimes when I worked out...
Please correct me if I'm wrong but if I know my Vietnamese history correctly, China never successfully incur into Vietnam during the Qing Dynasty. Ever since the independence of Vietnam as a country (I can't recall the years in BC) near the era of the Trung Sisters, very few times was Vietnam a subject of China, until recently.
Vietnam WAS NEVER part of China. The recent revelation not just damaged the political relationship but economic as well. Of course, Vietnam suffers a whole lot more since it is developing at a slower pace. Vietnamese farmers are devastated because their crops could not be exported; leaving them to sell for pennies locally. Such loss is considered chump change for China. It makes you wonder ... what the F--K China is doing trying to steal others' land when it can't even take care of its own people. I am surprised the US is not doing anything beside sitting on the sideline making some lame comments. China is trying to steal lands from people left and right including building a city in AFRICA .. yup .. you read it right .. AFRICHINA.
What do you expect US to do? The dog and pony show - economic sanctions on China like Russia when Russia annexed Crimea? Or perhaps what US did when Russia took Georgia?
Well, I won't dwell into matters of speculation, but long before the time of the Trung Sisters, before Vietnam became know as the Vietnam we know today, the group that eventually became modern Vietnam was located, believe it or not, in China territory. That's why the memorial for the Trung Sisters is located in China today, even though the Sisters are majorly Vietnamese history. Due to conflicts with the China of that time, that ancient Vietnamese group then made its way down to our modern Vietnam. In the process, they assimilated native tribes, one of whom are the Cham tribe in the south (Vietnam today). The pre-Vietnamese group did share an ancestry with China at one point, but that was years before Christ, much too long to be relevant in our conversation. But the essence is correct, Vietnam was never under Chinese rule. The reason for this is actually in part due to the strategic geoformations in the north of Vietnam. The mountains between Vietnam and China served as a natural wall. Anytime China incurred, it risks getting its supply and resources cut. Vietnam had terrain advantage during those times. Don't get me wrong, China could have kicked our asses anytime it wants if it had rerouted most of its forces towards Vietnam. Well, one of China's issues is the lack of resources and supplies to sustain its large population. Its density per area is just too high, and needs to find ways to spread its people out. That addresses your first point. As for America's involvement, it honestly had no stake or investment in Vietnam. The only reason why it would care would be for strategic placement against China and Russia, but even then it doesn't need it because of presence in the Philippines, Japan and South Korea. Democratic Vietnam has been expelled, the current Vietnamese government originates with communism. USA really has no business in Vietnam, and is NOT the world's police. I don't see why it would care to be involved. This picture is also not quite accurate.... China and some African nations are business partners. In China, I think it was either a district in Guandong or Fukien I can't remember, there are over 200,000 foreigners of African decent, there to do business and trades. The reverse is true as well, of Chinese establishing businesses in Africa. This is all fair trade and business. To say they are steal lands from Africa is sensationalist. I'm not condoning what China is doing today, although I do understand why it is doing so. But I also do not condone picking up pithforks and throwing peanuts based on propaganda, even when it is directed towards the aggressor.
Not uniquely Chinese Ahem! Read this book would help you to add more knowledge. It is not a uniquely Chinese thing. For those who don't know Chomsky it is one eminent man in the world. As far as I can tell from history it is inevitable that a strong power spreads its dominance much the same as any global business empire or ancient empire. Given half a chance even a small country had tried to dominate an entire continent e.g. Japan, Germany, Britain, Vikings, Greece, Romans..... There is a saying, if you cannot beat them, join them. In Europe, we have lots of small countries which became stabilised through royal marriages, treaties, alliances and economic communities. Personally I think inciting nationalism is bad on this forum as there is nothing much one can do other than to express an opinion. As far as I can tell a lot of the so called indigenous people now in the SE East is a mixture of local natives and people driven down south from Central China by the advancing Mongol Empire during the 13th and 14th Century. Also from Wiki "According to a research study done by the Hôpital Saint-Louis in Paris, France: "the comparison of the Vietnamese with other East Asian populations showed a close genetic relationship of the population under investigation with other Orientals", with the exception of seven unique markers. These results, along with remnants of Thai enzyme morphs, indicate a theory of a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from Chinese and Thai populations."
One of the biggest problems facing Vietnam is the fact that it remained an enemy of the US far too long after the war. Once it was essentially abandoned by the Russians, it didn't have any major power backing and it's biggest neighbor fought two wars against it. Needless to say, in the political gamesmanship of world power plays, VN got steamrolled. Some was primarily its own doing, while much of it was beyond its control. China and for all intents, its people, historically consider Vietnam former Chinese territory. Of course that is debatable on many levels, much like the arguments vis a vis Tibet and XinJiang, but its moot when it comes to minds of Chinese politics. This is something that the Filipinos are learning a hard lesson on, with Chinese incursion almost on a daily basis into their waters once the US left. Even the Japanese today, with staunch US military support, find it difficult to contain the PRC's border transgressions. IMHO, eventually it's going to come to a head, with ships sunk and lives lost before the PRC would be willing to back down. What matters here is political capital to spend, which other nations have with China, of which Vietnam has precious little. Other than cheap labor, cheap wives for horny Chinese men, and shallow political pockets easily filled, Vietnam has very little to bring to the bargaining table. The only way that Vietnam can hope to get ahead is to start a bidding war for its attention, much like a pretty girl with only 1 suitor should always do, before it's too late. VN needs to make deals with other nations, but primarily with the US, including allowing US military involvement in the region. It would be whole new ball game if the US had a port there. Some would call that "selling out." But national pride is meaningless when your head is in a noose; you die proud, but you still die. Right now, China is the biggest asshole on the block and it knows it. That's something that China has never backed down or walked away from. It has been doing this since the party took over in 1949. No one should ever trust the Chinese and force is the only thing that they understand, period.
I believe Vietnam has done deals with Russia though I only know of tourism, plus possibly oil and gas. But Russia is a bit stiff with USA and EU at the moment so Russia is closer to China! There are essentially deals to be done for Vietnam with 4 major powers : USA, Russia, India and China. EU is not one superpower per se as it is made up of disparate powers but it is an economic superpower. Then there are also deals with middling powers like: major countries in Europe, Korea, Japan... Unfortunately although Taiwan is a possible ally, the nationalism feeling cannot see Taiwan is distinct from PRC, at least politically! Genetically (DNA) speaking Vietnam should do deals with China (see my above post). Then again even family members can have feuds, even between father and son especially when there is a lot of wealth! As to "ralphrepo" suggestion of Vietnam joining up with USA. I don't think potential conflict with the nuclear button option is the answer. Besides I think, no offence, "ralphrego", it was not that long ago, the Amercians ethnically cleansed the Red Indians, they are not the best examples to defend human rights consistently. Any moment in the next 100 years it could revert back to Cow Boys and Indians except the stage is global! Let us not even forget how the might honourable Germans turn into Nazis in just 10 years. I see that Vietnam's national issue is not conflicts with China as this could be handled through trade deals, just look at how many Middle Eastern small countries done deals with USA and Europe for oil and gas! Vietnam should concentrate on true standard of living increase for its people. For this I see that they have three major issues: difficulty in foreign investment ownership, lack of clarity and consistency in implementation of law from central government, lack of integrity in accounting practice. Although investment could be done through a company structure, essentially, these are companies exploiting cheap labour. Viet Kieu could invest but there is difficulty in establishing ownership and inheritance.
You're missing my point entirely. Yes, I agree that the US is likely the worst example when it comes to honor and doing the right thing. But, and it's a big but, that ISN'T the point. If you're looking for a nation to defend Vietnam, you won't look for one that is honorable. Rather, you need to have someone in your corner that is militarily strong, financially sound, and more importantly, able to piss off China without breaking a sweat AND... this is the clincher, that China is afraid to offend. Right; that CHINA IS AFRAID TO OFFEND. There is no other nation in the world that owes China more money than the United States. In essence, if China is ever going to get it's money back, then China can rattle the US's cage, but it would never risk losing more than 1.2 Trillion USD that it has in US hands (the only other nation who the US owes as much is Japan, and they're our friend). Plus the US has the military to go toe to toe with the best that the PRC has to offer. In essence, there is no other nation in the world that can stand up to China as much as the US, based on those two facts alone. Vietnam's could substantially lower her risks from China if the US was not only a major economic friend, but also a military friend, like how the Koreans politically view the nearly 30 thousand US tripwire troops stationed in their country. Imagine if China invaded Vietnam and killed 30 thousand US troops stationed there; would the American public stand for it? Any sitting US president and Congress would immediately order revenge and attack China, not because they want the war, but because if they didn't they would be immediately voted out of office. That, in essence is the political tripwire guarding South Korea from the north. The north understands this, that they could never get past the emotional desire of the American people for revenge should the DPRK attack the ROK and, in the process, kill 30 K American soldiers. This is what kept a war ravaged country, where Spam was considered a luxury, safe and peaceful for over a half century, enough time for it to grow and become one of the most significant commercial and social success stories of the far east. THAT in a nutshell, is what Vietnam needs. Human rights? Tourism? Gas and Oil deals? Those things can only exist if there is a strong defense structure that keeps the peace. Right now, Vietnam doesn't have any defense structure worth talking about and China knows this. You want China to start respecting Vietnam? Announce joint Vietnamese US military exercises and the re-opening of a US naval port; that would get China's immediate attention, and respect. I think you need to really understand the significance of what you yourself had said.
Man I'm pretty torn about this situation. On one hand, I would love nothing more than for Vietnam to be rid of its current government and cultures adopted after the Vietnam War. On the other hand, I don't want Vietnam to be assimilated into China, and its history twisted, warped, erased and misinterpreted. America has zero interest in Vietnam, as Ralph has said. The only group that maybe has an interest, are the Viet Kieus, who were originally part of the prosperous Republic of Vietnam, and who were driven out shortly after America pulled out out of Vietnam. If the Viet Kieus invested in Vietnam and operated in Vietnam, any threat to these Viet Kieus would attract the attention of America, since many of these Viet Kieus are American citizens. Even so, the chances of that is slim. Even if it did work, the current Vietnamese government and its population have been cultivated to hate Viet Kieus. So any chances of operating in Vietnam is gone. I am incredibly saddened by this turn of events. Fuck China, fuck current Vietnam, and fuck everything related to that. Vietnam was once a prosperous country; and believe it or not, paralleled what South Korea is today. Vietnam could have been one of America's strongest allies in Asia. The Republic of Vietnam was economically and culturally strong. Everything turned to shit after America pulled out of Vietnam (I don't blame America at all, btw). The true Vietnam died long ago. The only trace of it is with the memories of Viet Kieus, and even that is slowly being forgotten. To borrow American mannerisms: Fuck the Commies.
Yes, and for many reasons. One thing that's not particularly common knowledge, is the economical, social and political affiliation the old Vietnam had, prior to the war. To understand why US involvement was important, one needs to understand the history of Vietnam. The Vietnam we know today is officially called the "Socialist Republic of Vietnam", iconized by the red flag with the yellow star. But formally, there was the "Republic of Vietnam", more commonly known as South Vietnam. South Vietnam was represented by the yellow flag with 3 red stripes, signifying the unification of Vietnam (the North, Central and South). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam) South Vietnam was a pro-democratic country, focused on the economical growth of Vietnam, much like what Singapore is doing today. The North Vietnam was pro-communism; and signed treaties with the Soviet Union to supply and militarized North Vietnam for a take over of Vietnam. Richard Nixon, at the time, ordered the "Vietnamization" policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamization), which aimed to expand, equip and train South Vietnam to defend against the North. What is also not commonly known, is that, as part of the Vietnamization policy, is that the goal was to reinforce South Vietnam, gradually transition the operations to Southern forces, and pull out of Vietnam. Without American support, South Vietnam would have been destroyed 100 times faster. America gave South Vietnam a fighting chance. It ultimately resulted in a loss, but it still gave South Vietnam a chance to fight. America did not need to provide support at all, but it did, and that gesture speaks volume for the people of Southern Vietnam. The following is more speculative discussion: Switching perspectives, what does this all mean for America? At that time, the Soviet Union was the primary threat for America. If you think about it, At that time, America had presence in South Korea and Japan. From a strategic point of view, what does this imply? The strategic locations of American presence appears like a containment of the Soviet Union. The Soviets knew that America was in South Korea and Japan, cutting off any possible limbs to reach the US. Why did the Soviets back North Vietnam? Because it was an opening. That gave the Soviets a way around the containment. America appeared in South Vietnam in guise of "supporting Vietnam", in order to tell the Soviet Union "don't even think about it". With all of that in consideration, do I think America should have ever even been in Vietnam to begin with? Absolutely. This is cliche, but if I lived in that time, iand you asked me whether I would pick Communism or FREED-- (just kidding.) democracy, the answer is quite obvious. However all of that is part of history. Do I think America should be involved in Vietnam today? The Vietnamese in me says yes, oh god please yes. The analyst/strategist in me says no, it doesn't make sense for it to be involved. If I was America, I wouldn't get involved and wouldn't touch it with a 20,000 km pole.
@Dan ..Lacked of resources to sustain the large Chinese population doesn't mean going out to steal people's land .. With Africa and even South America now, most so-called business partnerships are made of primarily of Chinese military. Basically, China is building little military ports everywhere which is why I feel the US should do more than just sitting on the sideline. Vietnam or whatever, China is a threat and we all know it; thus, it's better to be cautious and take some sort of action. For some odd reason, this thread is somehow leaning towards Vietnam and stuff when the focus supposed to be on China. I just happened to read on the recent events with VN and CH so brought it up .. China was fighting with JP and KR earlier on too..
Chinese border transgressions and incursions, "road building" and excessive maritime claims have been on going since the 1950's. India and Russia fought several border wars with China and weaker, less militarily prepared nations had to just get on their knees and swallow it. That is why it is so important for a politically nothing country to ally itself with a much stronger nation, where that strong nation would feel it a part of it's vital interest to protect that smaller nation. But it is, and remains a discussion about China and it's foreign policy; insofar as how it deals with a much smaller and weaker neighbor, through an examination of their historic dealings in light of present day events. China's method of dealing with Vietnam isn't new, but it has a twist. It has to thank Vietnam for kicking Chinese Ass during the Sino Viet War, thereby forcing Beijing to thereafter modernize it's military. Further, despite the "we all comrades" facade of state "communism" it isn't any secret that most Vietnamese openly loathe the Chinese. They want their money, but they won't want to marry their sisters or daughters to China. In fact, after the war, the thousands of boat people that were forced into the waters of South East Asia were mostly ethnic Chinese that had been living in Vietnam. It was a move akin to the Armenian Genocide, where one ethnic group is forcefully driven from their homes for no other reason than their genetic and cultural origins. Now, throw into that mix, the recent two decades worth of Chinese imperialism, essentially enabled by it's recent global economic successes. China currently has become the former 'Eight Nations' all rolled into one. For those that don't remember, the Eight Nations were the foreign imperialists that strove to divide and conquer China during the late Qing. Much like how the disaffected and disenfranchised Han Chinese, under the Qing, historically rose to force out the foreigners (Boxer Rebellion), present day Vietnamese witnessing the ever increasing 'concessions' given China view it in a similar light; it gives their anger the same raison d'etre and legitimacy.
As a Vietnamese, I apologize for that. That is really not a cool thing to do. But yes, your points are spot on, in terms of how the Vietnamese view the situation. Also, you pointed an important bit: The Vietnamese are obsessively xenophobic. I think they rank pretty high on the list of nations with xenophobia, paralleling South Korea. It's not just the Chinese that they don't want to marry, they don't want to marry any non-Vietnamese. This xenophobia leads to difficulties of striking up trades, partnerships and relationships with prospective allies. But yes, this is indeed a Chinese-centric discussion, and so I digress. I would like some clarification on something though, since this has happened for decades, what really fuels this sense of self-entitlement, and the way of passive-aggressively incur on neighbouring nations as if they have the ownership of that land? It reminds me of grocery shopping in Chinese supermarkets... I'm there picking out some fruits, and these ladies just passive-aggressively squeeze in between me and the fruit stand. This has happened way too many times. Shit, if you're going to take something, effing take it! What drives me more nuts than this type of incursion is the passive-aggressive way they do it.
