I guess you are right, but I just don't understand the construction of a God (or a Higher being/existence) to act as your moral anchor, as many religion aim to achieve. Plus, the believe I hold is one of non-interference. The God (or a Higher being/existence) do not interfere, be it help or destroy, human lives. I think it's kind of delusional to think that there's some other existence who will give you moral (or possibly actual and spiritual) support regardless of your action.
Can you explain a little bit more on moral anchor... Since it is your whole argument base upon... Because when I type in moral anchor on google, I got "Tyson's Moral Anchor" On your second part... "Spirtual Support" If you believe every human have a soul then I think it's nesscary to have some sort of Spirtual sense in our lives... It should not just be something stuck in your body but it needs to be nourish just like our body needs food... But I have a question... What do you believe will happen after you die? (As in going to Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation, Simply Disappear, ect)
Um, moral anchor, it's a sort of metaphor I use often in discussions like this. To a certain extent (within my knowledge of course, same applies in the following passage), having a religion gives one the sense of belong. And when some religion tells the followers that BECAUSE they follow this religion, they are superior than the rest who doesn't follow (see the whole going to heaven vs. hell, thou shall not worship false idol thing?). As a result, the followers feel they are superior to the rest of the world (meaning those who DOESN'T follow since they just DON'T GET THE TRUTH or walked down a wrong path whatever) and whatever they do will only better the world. Well unfortunately that just gave them a free-for-all card for all kinds of inhumanity. For exaggeration's sake (and to illustrate the point), if A follows a religion (which nearly ALWAYS diss the non-believers, that's religion in general) and B doesn't, A, after much study of the scripture (people who don't follow the religion are either 1> sprawls of the devil, 2> unenlightened, 3> follows a false idol instead or 4> all of the above) decided that yes, B follows a false idol which may cause apocalypse to the world (there's always the punishment to those non-followers and rewards to take them out or lead them into the right way). A first tries to talk to B, when B, who wholeheartedly believe it's kind of delusional, the whole religion thing, A decides that B is beyond help and the world is better off without B before apocalypse comes because of one person's unenlightened choice of belief. So A somehow "took out" B. And felt very justified. Would you think it is okay? A can sleep at night VERY WELL because A thinks that it was a HUGE flavour to the world at large "I saved you from an impending apocalypse!". Somehow, religion is able to rid the individual guilt. And when bad things happens to the faithful, it's either 1> a challenge from the one above or 2> some evil plan to steer him/her away from the true god. So in turn, religion gave the endurance of suffering to the faithful, yet at the same time, it replaces their conscience. That's the moral anchor I was talking about. Of course, most people, faithful or otherwise, do not go around killing others. Here's another example: A is a follower of a certain religion. Whenever A did something good, it is because the god told A to do so. Whenever A did something bad, it is because A was tempted by the evil. Now A just don't have to face consequences in a personal sense anymore because it's not A's choice to do bad or good. So believe, and believe harder so that you'll do good all the time! In response to the question you posed for me: I believe I as an human identity just cease to exist and decompose into dust and soil. Anyways, I guess this post will offend the majority of people, but I sincerely believe in the cases and its logic. It's not a moment of insanity, nor it is that an evil of some sort MADE me do it, I consciously know it will offend and it's not nice (to use harsh examples like the one above) but it get the point across the best. Discussion is always welcome. Plus, it' stimulates the brain to argue.
That suck though... In my opinion... My soul will leave the body and goes some place else... To where? Well, I do not know... but as long as I know I still exist... Because I feel that life is pointless on Earth if nothing exist outside of it... There is no difference from a killer and a saint (or anyone who represent justice) if you die and cease to exist... It makes me feel like has no meaning... I honestly do not feel superior because I am Christian. Sometimes I feel that it's hard to believe God than to someone who does not. Even though there is so many different religion, most religion strive to reach for common good so that the world can live in harmony. I can't relate to this because it is very exagerated... Unless this is about Al-qaeda and sucide bomber How does A does not get any consequences? God gave us free will which allow us to make choices. So whether you were tempted by evil or not, it is your fault. Also, you don't believe harder that you'll do good the next time. You just do the good next time, it had nothing to do with believe. I'm not sure but I think you got some wrong idea of a religion. Maybe, I just ain't seeing the connection with the religion I believe in... -^_^
That's why you seize the day and treasure every day as if it's the last. Think child-molesting priests.
For me, I feel that if nothing else exist after my death. Then I might as well kill myself right now. It's so pointless, no one will remeber you and you won't even remeber yourself. Even if you did all those great thing and end up in the history book, then what? You don't even exist anymore. You're just nothing then. Why would it still matter? Think about child-molesting people Just because one or two people did it, you can't gereralize the whole community. That's just wrong...
No, people remember you. Your friends and family. That is one of the underlying reason why people procreate -- we always NEED someone to clear our grave. But I don't really care what will happen, be it nil or some heaven or hell. It's a ticking clock, so that's why I treasure my living. It's not the act of child molestation I am talking about, it's the "shielding them from just punishment" part I have issues with.
5 generation from now, no one would even know who you are anymore. Like I wouldn't even know who my great grand father is, non do I really care either. How does that shield us from punishment? If you sin knowing that you are sinning then I'm pretty sure if "Hell" do exist, then you'll pretty much end up there.
Hm I guess that depends on the family... I just visited the town my paternal family lived (from really long time ago until around the revolution time) last time I visited Hong Kong. Though I personally think that my existence on earth leave a mark one way or another (it's another story how I get this impression). But the bottom line is, why do we need a point in living? The point in life is to better oneself and live to the fullest. Isn't that enough? Or you need some afterlife on another plane so that you can compare your lifelong achievements with others who are there? That's the problem, I don't believe in the punishment in the afterlife, because I don't believe there is an afterlife at all. Why do the church send the prepetrating priest from locale to locale so that they can further victimize people? Law is there for a reason you know. If we all believe in afterlife and the just punishment dealt out there, why do we send the convicted to prison or the electric chair? We can just let them roam and kill more people while comforting ourselves that "oh well, they will be justly punished when they die".
But even if you leave a mark, does anyone care? Probably not, you're just another human being who exist before just like everyone else. I feel existence is important for myself. If "I" do not even know "I" exist, then why would it matter that someone else believe you exist. Law are not always right. If you look at the "Stupid Law" Thread, you might realize our law system is flaw and filled with loop holes all around it. They are often abuse because no one really give a crap. Take for example for abortion... Is that justice? Just because the law allows it, does it mean it's right? Probably not. That's absurd, sending people to electric chair is wrong. No one has the right to kill another human being, that is not justice, it's murder. We have punishment on Earth also because even thought we can't serve justice by killing someone, but we can serve justice by protecting our society.
Hm, the fact that there is an afterlife is in some way proof for you that you existed? I don't really follow that part. But I guess the most important point in life (to me) is that to live. Keeping on questioning existence itself sounds kind of weird and a holy waste of time since there is no way to prove or disprove it. I know my conscious exist. But when in death my conscious just 'pop' and cease to exist that 's fine too because I knew (before I die) that lived my life instead of let it wash by me while pondering something abstract. Something which makes a good philosophy paper does not mean it makes a good living philosophy. And common sense always prevail, yes. That is why I have yet read about those stupid laws on my local newspaper "some remote town man convicted of eating garlic then sex with wife". There are loopholes does not mean we should just abandon it, it means that we should improve it and eliminate the loopholes. I am not sure if you meant "there are often abuses" or "they (the loopholes) are often abused" so... would you mind clarify? And abortion. It always comes down to it. I don't see criminalizing abortion as anything but to push the people who WANTED to have an abortion to the black market. And then abortion will really be immoral because it harms not only the not-quite-human piece of flesh but the mother who bears the womb too. Is it more moral and humane to end someone's suffering or it's better to let "nature" run its course and have the person suffer some more if it is certain that the person is going to die one way or another(i.e.: Euthanasia)? And somehow letting the killer roam is NOT wrong? It is a problem that is happening, and the whole improve education sounds really nice in theory while in reality, there are ALWAYS people who have the malice to harm others. A life is taken, and possibly many more will be if you do nothing about it, how do you deal with that? I know for a fact that electric chair or capital punishment is not the perfect way, nor am I trying to say it is. It is just the most effective way to minimize damage until some better punishment can be invented and deviced.
But did you really live your life? Is it by living your life to the fullest? How would you achieve that? Is it by doing something you most enjoy? Is that enjoyment really fulfill you at all? Well that's your opinion because that is my living philosophy Improve, well sure hell better happen soon. We been living for how many centuries? Yes, let's all pray President Bush will fix it all up. But getting out of Iraq should be a start. Take "Tax" for example, it was meant to balance out between the rich and the poor. But now "Tax" made rich, richer and poor, poorer, every year the gaps is widen. (I don't want to into detail, all economic stuff... Unless you really want me to take out my notes) Obviously, there is no absolute right or wrong answer. But if you look in the history when the 1st abortion happen. John Paul the 2nd already saw the problem as it open up the gap for abortion, people thought he was mad and insane. Now, Canada legalize abortion and everyday, many innocent lives are taken away. That's why I have no problem saying that putting them in jail is fine because we are then protecting our human right. But you see "Capital punishment" does not minimize damage... Take this for example: If I was to be a thief, knowing if I get caught I would be shot to death. Now I stole something and that this person saw me (I don't know if he will tell the police or not) Now, if he was to tell the police, then I would be excuted However, if I kill him (Let's say I won't get caught), then to save myself, I would then kill him... I think this is what happening to Capital Punishment, it cause criminal to become more violent since if they're caught they would die anyway. Therefore, they might as well go all the way.
That's the way you live your life? Questioning your existence day in and day out? I know a bit about tax, not an economics person though. It is meant to balance the rich and the poor, but heck do you know why the rich get tax breaks? Because they can choose to relocate to somewhere with a lower tax. It's the fault of theirs haggling and not giving back to the community. I guess one day we don't have to pay tax at all, because we hire our own bodyguards, path our own road, and hook up our own well in the backyards and burn our garbage. The ironic thing is that religion is exactly why Bush was up there in a place to make life-changin decision in the first place. It depends on how you define life. I don't see the unborn fetus as life until it get to the around third month when it actually take some kind of shape instead of a aggregation of cells. Just curious, does vasectomy and tubal ligation as sinful as abortion? Because heck, that surely does ensure no "innocent lives" be taken by abortion. Well, I didn't say we should just put EVERY SINGLE criminal into the electric chair or get the shot. I only said that for the MURDERERS, someone who took another person's life. And I totally know the flaw of capital punishment, I may not be a history-know-all, but I do know some 17th-18th century history to recognize the ripple effect of a universal capital punishment. However, the "put all criminals in the prisons" theory works only when you get unlimited space. It's like California's three strikes ruling, any unlawful act, be it steal a bar of gum or underage drinking, three times and you are in prison for good. Yeah, it sounds so good that they build prisons faster than public housing. And you know how much a prison cost to built and keep? Keeping a prisoner is more expensive than most people would think. Where do you think the money is going to come from? Sooner or later the prisoners will get pardons or paroles (I don't know the exact term, but released due to good behaviour type) and he's ready to kill again after all the frustration from prison and no mean of earning a living.
Philosophy - a Greek word came from "Sopia" meaing "Widsom" I rather live in a life of wisdom than ignorance Everyday Philosophy is involve whether you believe it or not What? where did you get this information from? But scientist already prove the life exist once the sperm meet the egg. Yes, I believe vasectomy and tubal ligation as sinful as abortion because you're damaging your whole human body and degrade your human diginity. And to ensure no innocent lives to taken away is not to have sex for pleasure instead of sterilizing the body. Then isn't there a reason why the crime rate is flying up sky high? Maybe there is something wrong with the education system. Take example with the weapon in US, almost everyone can have a weapon at anytime. It was meant to protect themselves, and look what is happening. You have to realize why there is so many crime, and they don't just happen. The foundation of the society is corrupted. So maybe instead of shooting every off for a short term solution, maybe a long term solution should be placed so that these will be minimize from the first place.
Almost all the states from the Bible belt end up being a red state (for Bush), it's a logical association. I'll have to look up the image/map I saw a while back (when Bush was NEWLY RE-ELECTED) Interesting, would you mind sending me the link to where that information come from? Since I just studied embryology and it didn't mention that AT ALL. Yes there are cell division before sperm meets the egg, but it doesn't mean life, otherwise we should just all keep our appendicitis'd appendix or let our nails and hair grow without ever cutting them. Wow, how ironic, the means to protect ourselves are endangering us. And while we are looking for the betterment of society in general (be it via improving law and justice or education system), we should just sit there and let the murderers roam. I guess the best way to avoid futher suffering of mankind would be the non-existence of mankind. Ever since human has recorded history (Bible doesn't count, so Garden of Eden is just a myth, though it has its huge bloody share of suffering), there was not a single time that man had been at peace. It is somehting so fantastical that it is possible that it never did and never will exist. I am a pessimist to human and I don't believe in rehabilitation or repent. A mistake is a mistake is a mistake and a punishment is just dessert. As long as it is dealt out according to the crime committed.
^ I'll get back to you tomorrow... But I need to sleep now... I luv debating with you... (One of the few intellectual member in this forum, *hope no one read this)... Haha...
^lol.. I read that.. This is just becoming a 1 on 1 thread hiake VS AC0110 looks like there is no place for my existence here.. will just hang ard and see what happens
seriously, i used to believe in god.. not anymore though.. god really doesnt help u do things because u do those things yourself.. 'god' is probably just some form of mental support.. some form of self-assurance that things will be fine. but one thing.. i really have near zero tolerance for people who tell me that if i dont believe in god i go to hell. Then are u only good just for the sake of getting your 'reward' ie going to heaven? 0.o i just dont get it.
@AC0110: I read that too ^^b, BTW, I may not be as quick to reply in the next week or so (afterall, it takes long to write a long reply which requires page-down ) Exams =_=b BTW congrats on the... you know, letters. @Xiaojia: Don't you DARE abandon this thread! I look forward to your input!!! @Tree: The whole "you are going to burn in hell while I get to be welcome through the gate of heaven" was really annoying, I concur. =_=b especially when you have MULTIPLE encounters with that. I can't help but think that a portion (from what I have encountered and those who DO do that, it's not a minority) of religious followers are just free-riders who have little knowledge of the scriuptures and get all high and almighty and "moral" to judge others. That kind of make me question religion further.
I truly believe. I need to start Sunday service at the church soon, my moral values are depleting cuz I find myself becoming an evil, selfish person... GOD!
