my genuine hope was to clear some problems and issues with Christianity; however it seems like i only enrage and delude it. i would like to say that i apologize if i cause anyone to be upset and angry with what i said. that was not my initial intent. to tell you the truth, this is my first time talking about Christianity upon an open forum. some would consider this as a fail discussion on my part. however, it isn't to me. where one sees failure, another sees an opportunity to learn. my experience with telling ppl about Christianity is more on the level of personal interaction. and unfortunately that cannot be met here. so I encourage the fact that if one wants to know more about Christianity and why we think it is the truth? one must first open this "bible" that we use so passionately. and then when questions arise - which will happen - one must consulate and ask another Christian that they know and respect to answer it for them. i believe that is the best possible way to understand the depth of Christianity. and helps us Christian too. I never meant to condemn you, guys and gals, nor was I here to judge you on your mistakes. I made statements from the bible and my view of Christianity – and some how it caused so many ppl to be shaken and position themselves in defense-formation. You ask me what I believe and I told you. You ask me questions and I answer them (to the best of my knowledge). I don’t see why ppl are upset and angry. Yes, my message is harsh and difficult to grasp. However that is the message and I told it. You wanted me to tell it and I did. Simple as that. Then to state that i'm being egocentric and ignorant towards logic is not correct or fair. whose being judgemental now? I completely and wholly believe that if you truly want to understand Christianity, you must first leave the bickering and accusations at the door, and read the Bible to find out who is this Jesus? Why are Christians so passionate about him? What does Jesus Christ teach? Then will God stir in your heart to show you the answers to your questions. one last thing -- there are still questions in this thread that I haven’t address or answer. And I think I reserve it for later. Like many people, I still learning and my knowledge on the subject is still an infant compare to others. Therefore, with all due respect to everyone who posted, I will be back later. Hopefully, with better explanations and answers.
@mgfcortez: I would like to extend my thanks for being calm instead of just dwelling on one single point or argument here, I guess it's just too easy to lose perspective in a discussion such as this one. Your interpretation of Christianity, if I may say so, eliminated many loopholes "traditional" Christians (at least those I have encountered and argued against) fell victim to. While I do not embrace it as my newly adopted philosophy of life, you opened up a possibility that Christianity may not be as illogical and solely faith-based in its construct as it is often illustrated to be. Thanks again and I look forward to your other posts.
First of all, the non-excommunication of hitler on behalf of the Catholic Church is and important point and fact. You should understand why. Secondly, you say hitler wasn't a Christian? "He confessed his Christianity". Thirdly, just because you think he wasn't a Christian because he doesn't fit into your views of what it is to be a 'true' Christian doesn't mean he wasn't because even Chatholic priests of that time including the Vatican acknowledged him to be a Christian. Last but not least I will leave you with this quote; "To ignore the evidence of Hitler's Christianity demonstrates how power of belief can obscure the facts." One more thing I'll add is that hitlers actions and atrocities are actually commands in the old testiments and is allowed if you want to talking about what it is to be a true Christian. Unless of course you're following the newer versions of the bible that was altered from God's original words. The original bible.
Oh, I didn't realize. I just read some of the first post and saw one in response to mine and posted. And it doesn't seem like anything was cleared since I still sense alot of heat. Also, just can't stand it when misinformation is spread.
I doubt anyone was "shaken" and in "defensive formations". I'm guesing because of contridictions in your answers and the choosing of what questions you can answer while ignoring others. But it's true, correct, and fair because you bring nothing but ideas, beliefs, and stories to the table and present them as facts while others are using logic and real facts. Our judgement doesn't condemn anyone to hell. Like I said, welcome to Christianity, leave all logic and facts at the door. I'm done.
Again, I stress Buddhism is not a religion. Because whilst other religions are more on praying to a God; Buddhism is all about self spiritual advancement. Buddha, as I have said, is NOT a God. Neither does Buddhism actually calls on the Buddhists to do any rituals or prayers. Most of the Buddhists have deified Buddha, said to have lived about 500 or 600 B.C; because they needed to have a 'Divine Being' to look up to; just as the Christians have their Jesus to worship and the Muslims worship Allah. Although Buddha's very existence ended in Nirvana, and He was thus completely annihilated about 2,400 years ago, Buddhists still offer a kind of prayer to Him as "the Venerable of the World"! Indeed, the central object in every Buddhist temple is an image of Buddha, where fruit, flowers, and incense are daily offered. Thus, I look at it this way. The practice of worshipping Buddha and other images of 'Gods' such as the Goddest of Mercy; are merely an act for me to pay respect to those who have attained Nirvana and passed on to another plane of existence. I look at the act of worship as a Buddhist's culture; not by all means, a religious act. Therefore, since I have been taught the culture and following it since I was young, and I still feel comfortable doing it; thus I continue doing so. The Buddhism scriptures itself however, does teach one prayers to one's Overself; and those prayers can be likened to Christians' and Muslims' prayers to God. P/s: Mfgcortez is my Christian friend that I was talking about.
Oh this seems to be over then, ok. hiake, i was talking to babyrain, we were the only two people talking at that time and i was referring to the last few posts which contained prolly 5 words each. i thought ill point it out this time cus its happened a couple times before, when you log on hours later and guess im talking to you. we all make mistakes so no worries.
Now I am offended. Am I supposed to keep quiet when some ignorant comment is being made on MY BEHALF? Am i supposed to be silent when some idiotic statement is being said to come from MY mouth? Conclusion: Some people NEVER learn. Period.
mgfcortez Hey there, thanks for posting, i have a question for you. when Jesus returns and sets up his kingdom for 1000 years, will those who dies without Jesus be given a second chance during that time? and didnt Satan draw down a third of the angels? Thanks in advanced
Babyrain, on a serious note, i have no idea what your talking about, accuse me of whatever you want, i dont mind.
It is SAD that you still can't see why most of us here are 'upset' with your comments. First of all, personally, I can't stand people who 'made up' some facts which they then, claim to be from the Bible aka God's words. As you can see, I have laid it down in post #249, which was NOT addressed. Nothing in those paragraphs clearly stated that all non-believers shall be punished in Hell. Now who are you to come up with ur own additional interpretation of these paragraphs and then claim them to be from God's mouth? It's exactly what Master_g did with my posts on the Concept of REINCARNATION. Anyone who ACTUALLY read my posts would know that those statements are ridiculously false. And yet, master_g claimed those statements come from my mouth. Seriously, I wonder if God'd actually be pissed with you right now for putting words in His mouth. If you haven't noticed it, it's a fact that we did not get upset with just any Christians who made a post. Mfgcortez was a fine example. So it's gotta do with your comments; and not really with the Christians' beliefs or message. The first step you should do was explain Christianity from the Bible's exact words, and interpret it accordingly with logicality and reasoning. NOT just by trying to scare everyone with the concept of eternal damnation and rewards/punishment. Those are entirely YOUR own interpretation; as far as I can tell from those paragraphs you listed down.
I SERIOUSLY don't see why you can't see it. When it's even clear to an OUTSIDER, for God's sake! Omg, accuse you? PUHLEEZ. I never do that. Now, YOU ARE ACCUSING ME OF ACCUSING you, yet again. I'll lay it all out AGAIN one final time; Master_g 1) firstly, you made a false statement on Buddhism and claims it to be from YOURS TRULY. 2) secondly, you made an EDIT which is another equally false statement and YET AGAIN, claims it to be from ME. 3) thirdly, you RELUCTANTLY 'apologized' instead of a sincere apology. 4) You resorted to calling my protest of your false statements which, you claimed to be IN MY WORDS; as SPAM. Now, seriously, Master_g, how much would it take for you to admit you are wrong in matters which you have NO knowledge about and WORSE, claiming them to come from ME; and apologize for claiming that to be true, instead of trying to cover up and play dumb? I have come to a conclusion that YOU, MASTER_G, are beyond help.
i initially plan to take the high road. however, i guess some ppl are not satisfied with me stepping aside and admitting that i have more to learn about Christianity. throughout this debate - please do not think that my mind was so harden that i fail to perceive what is logical and so obvious, in nature, the fail theories of Christianity. for i did change some of my beliefs throughout this debate, for it seem that my interpretation was indeed wrong. for example, the ideals of unconditional love and forgiveness. God hates sin more than anything in this world. and unfortunately we are covered all over with it - in retrospective God hates us (ALL OF US). therefore, how can his love be unconditional if He see sin with hate; and we are connected to sin? a question that i'm still pondering over and thinking about (thanks to hiake). therefore, don't think that i am so ignorant and simple-minded that i don't question my belief and my faith with notion of logical and common sense. i do. and in most cases, i calm myself with explanation of my own questions with different articles and readings about Christianity, not just using the Bible as my only reference. A little background: my major in college is pure (theoretical) mathematic. I love math and also had. And i like to think that i see my life through a mathematician’s mind. therefore, like i treat any mathematical problem – Christianity was also forge through the same questioning, concerns, and doubts. And at the end, it has given me the right answers. now, why am i posting again? it seems like some ppl didn't like me leaving without answering some their questions (and i'll address them in the next post). however, like i have said from the very first post i made on this "philosophy and religion" forum -- these are my views and I gather them through what i perceive and understand from reading the Bible and other individual's publicized works. and i'll try my best to explain it to the fullness of my knowledge. ok?
Correct, All humans are condemn to hell. However, there is an exception. You see, Paul (the author of Roman) was trying to make a three points. First point – No one is righteous and we all need help (Roman 3:20). Second point – God has provided that help in the form of his Son, making peace with us (Roman 5:11). Third Point (which address to your statement) – Therefore God no longer condemns those who are in Christ. (Roman 8:1). Right, in that statement there are no notion of non-believers going to Hell. However, this statement is made with the understanding of the statement below. I understand your question and doubts. However, is there another place (after death) in the Bible that was spoken of other than Heaven and Hell? Therefore, Christians make the assumption that if you are not going to Heaven – then you have to be going to Hell (since the Bible doesn’t mention a “grey” area for those others to dwell in). I totally agree with mgfcortez that isn’t our decision whether anyone is going to hell or not, it is God’s. however, if God exist and the bible is inspired from Him. Then you cannot deny the underlying facts of Hell. It is fundamentally rooted in a Christian’s life. This statement is made in correlation with the quote in Revelation about the Bible of Life. Nowhere, eh? This what I mean by “manipulating” words. If you understand the whole context for that statement you will see that it is supporting the theology of grace through faith. I think I have address this before. However, I’ll gladly do it again. Being a good citizen is common sense. It is not something to be debate upon. No sane individual would say that murdering is good, or that committing adultery is not sinful. So as common sense, ppl would assume that like most other religious and “way of life” factions … action is needed to receive salvation. However, that isn’t true. The source of salvation is true faith and a repentful heart. If an individual has truly been repentful and as hiake pointed out, true repentance is the wiliness and need to change one’s mistakes forever. Then why shouldn’t they be forgiven? Like I have stated before, God isn’t stupid. He can see in your heart whether you have true faith in Christ or not. And whether you have truly repented for your sins or not. Well, some may view this as an opening to Christianity; that there is always hope for the lost. But there are those that see it as a strict requirement to Christianity. Next quotation -- And Christians understood that as well. Faith can be seen as a very, very strict requirement. But once you have it, it isn’t that bad. It comes naturally to be faithful. bear in mind, that being faithful doesn't mean you are not allowed to question the truth about the Bible. you're allow to question its theology since in the end you have faith that your questions will be answer accordingly and thoroughly to your individual needs. Now, this my own experience and has NOTHING to do with Christianity. All good things comes with time. Hard work, dedication, and perseverance is what I believe to insure and guarantee a satisfying life. Yes, there are things in life that comes quickly and easily with the notion of being good. However, it is fleeting and in long-run, causes you to fall and stumble more often. So … this is my philosophy. lol. Work hard and take care with caution of the good things that comes too easily.
God no longer condemns those who are in Christ; doesn't mean God condemns all those who are NOT Christians. Your logic here of assuming there's sth opposite is too presumptious. Like I said, you are not supposed to twist the logic. Just because it is mentioned that those who are Christians go to Heaven doesn't automatically mean those who are NOT, will go to Hell. They might still go to Heaven. That's right, it's not YOUR decision; it is entirely up to God. And nowhere in the Bible did it state that non-believers go to Hell. Period. So don't make ASSUMPTION by deriving from a fact that since Christians go to Heaven; therefore non-christians go to Hell. Uh, excuse me, that's a statement claiming that no one will know God except through Jesus. But again, never did it condemn non-believers to Hell. Manipulating words? Not. I am just doing what you do. Taking the Bible at face value and reasoning it out according to the words in the paragraph. Funny you are able to reason out the goodness but blinded by other illogical reasoning. Of course, everyone must take caution in all good things that come easily. So tell me, when you promise someone a reward in Heaven just because they embrace your faith; and tell you your going to Hell otherwise; isn't that the 'easy way' you are portraying it to be? I am not saying Christianity is an easy way. I am saying you seem to be portaying it to be so. Honestly, try to learn from mfgcortez and respect others' right in their own beliefs. Then you'll come across as a better Christian. ALL religions take faith and hard work. ALL religions never condone bad deeds. ALL religions demand one to do good, and that is not easy way. Period.
exuse me, for the slowness of this post. i had other things to take care of. BabyRain, your first four points are basically saying that “b/c you are Christian and you are going to heaven, then you shouldn’t assume that non-Christian are going hell?” Am I right? first of all i don't see your logic here. IF all are condemn to hell and then those who believe are then exempted from that condemning. won't it equal that all the others that don't believe in Christ are still going to hell? for example - you have the equation “x/π = 'an irrational number'". we know that the 'x' has to have ‘π’ or ‘0’ in order for the equation to be invalid. would it be accurate to state all others numbers expect having ‘π’ or ‘0’ would validate the equation? after much thinking I can see where master_g draws his frustration. I am not a big fan of telling non-Christian, “REPENT NOW OR GO TO HELL!! BLAH!!” and I made my view very clear when I first started this discussion; however, in order to understand Christianity you must embrace the notion that Christian do believe in a Heaven and a Hell. master_g many times makes the statement that “we will see in the end who is right”. Even though he might have made this statement out of angry and not wanting to discuss the issue at hand anymore. There is some validity in that statement. Since in fact, we will see whether who is right or wrong in the end b/c death is inedible. Now, who is going to lose more when death does come? A Christian or non-Christian. If you view this from a non-believer’s perceptive (not to single out Buddhism. but BabyRain is nice enough to provide a thorough explanation on its view of the afterlife) what are we going to lose? Since punishment is only temporary and will eventually end … you can just power-through it, taking it one day at a time. However, what if it was eternal? Forever? The risk are much higher for a non-believer of Christianity than, in this case, for a non-believer of Buddhism. You see, if at the end … I was wrong and God does accept all ppl from all religions. I promise you BabyRain and everyone I have upset here, that if I find you on that day in heaven. I will bow down, kiss your feet, and say, “I’m truly, truly, TRULY sorry.” For all it would be for me is that I would look stupid, ignorant, and prideful when I was here on earth. However, if I was right … this exchange isn’t equal; it is much direr for the non-Christian b/c it is eternity in Hell. Do you see my point? I don’t believe in “scaring” people into believing in Christianity and that is not how I personally show my friends and family the truth in Christianity. I just wanted to clear up the notion of why some Christians are motivated to use Hell as a reference of conversion. I’m not for it nor am I against it.
Im sorry if im scaring people, i DO focus on hell because of its seriousness, in this day and age many Christians and even churches are afraid of talking about it. i guess different Christians have different ways, but that is my way and ill boldly speak it, and unless God revels to me otherwise, ill carry on. ill admit the forum was a new challenge for me, talking to people face to face, ive been very successful, but on the forums people have been upset which wasnt my intention at all. If im asked a question that will result in me talking about hell or my belief in Jesus being the only way then i WILL, ill always do it. as a Christian its my main job to do this and i wont remain silent. if you wish to ignore it then that's your choice of course. Though you may not see this, i say what i say cus i DONT want you to go there. It would be easier to leave than stay, and im staying its easy to say "cus of you i wont believe in Christianity" but weather you chose to accept it today or next year, youll eventually have to accept Gods judgement and if its unacceptable today then it will be unacceptable next year IMO. if you dont understand what im saying then ignore that part. Please, no angry replies to this, if youve been insulted by everything i just said then its not my intention.
wait a minute.... please clear something out... my mind froze after i read this.. however there are exceptions? uhh ok. im gonna go make some steak for dinner.
No offense, but literally, and I want to see some actual Arabic numerals.. How many times did Jesus talk of "Hell", so that you'd actually state as fact that Jesus spoke of it more than anything else in the Bible?? Anyway, in response, if "Hell" was a literal imprisonment of the Devil and his demons, then how is it that in the book of Job, Satan entered among the angels and God himself in order to question the faith and motives of righteous Job, thus the outcome was when Job was tested?.. *Just curious*
