If Jesus really died for our sins...

Discussion in 'Philosophy & Religion' started by drsnoopy, May 21, 2007.

  1. hiake

    hiake Vardøgr of da E.Twin

    Again, so for argument's sake (and easier reading), let's just divide the Bible into 2 parts: DEBATIBLE and NON-DEBATIBLE.

    NON-DEBATIBLE is the foundational doctrines of Christianity.

    So from that logic, DEBATIBLE is NOT the foundational doctrine of Christianity.

    So far so good?

    Great, now we head to how that works with missionary. If it's something NON-DEBATIBLE, the person in question (who seek God blah blah blah) can do some nightly reading on the Bible and come up with more or less the same understanding as Christianity intended said person to have. Right?

    If that's the case, why do we need missionary to teach people things they can learn from the Bible themselves? Besides the obvious reason of said population being illiterate and such of course.
     
  2. apollon

    apollon Well-Known Member

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    and you base your teaching of reincarnation and buddhism on the scripture of buddhist monks.

    and i may be skeptical about the buddhistic scripture. however, i assume that it is orthodox in its teaching. what is your proof that the bible is errant?

    i'm stilling reading "Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties" by Dr. Gleason Archer, however, he does make some valid reasoning on why he thinks it is inerrant. very interesting, if i may add.
     
  3. apollon

    apollon Well-Known Member

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    well, the debatible portion of the bible is not as debatible as other may want one to perceive. it can be simply a different view on a passage (it is not as dramatic as is there hell or not). however, for a missionary that isn't a problem. since, they are there only on a determined amount of time. so, the populace will have to read the bible to understand any further questions or concerns that the missionaries are not able to answer, since they are not present.

    there isn't really a need for missionaries after a person receive Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit. only in the stance, if they don't understand something, or they think their understanding of the bible is wrong.

    but in any case, most pastors would encourage the confused Christian to read the Bible more thoroughly and pray. Since, God is able to speak through the Bible in a way and open that individual's point of view and understanding.
     
  4. BabyRain

    BabyRain Doppelgänger of da E.Twin

    Wow, really Apollon. If religion is something that can be PROVEN, none of us would be having a debate right now. In fact, that ONE SO-CALLED PROVEN religion would be embraced by all mankind now, since it can be PROVEN.

    Even if you assume the teachings are orthodox, again; it's sth that is just commonly accepted, customary, or traditional. In no way does that mean that the teachings are PROVEN RIGHT.

    And your religion, is totally based on the book of Bible, which to this day, no one can prove its authenticity with solid proof/evidence or else, no one would be having the debate right now. Whatever proof/evidence that you have to support the authenticity of the Bible came from the book itself.

    So how does sth prove its own existence?!
     
  5. hiake

    hiake Vardøgr of da E.Twin

    I think you just lost me on that last post... Or my brain's failing me at such late hour...

    But in short, if the function of missionary can be replaced by the Bible, I don't think they warrant existence (again, besides the obvious case of illiterate and such)

    One way or another, I think BR's waiting to discuss with you another subject matter... Me off now, night =_=b
     
  6. BabyRain

    BabyRain Doppelgänger of da E.Twin

    Hiake, there's nothing to be discussed.
    Lol, this fella is claiming that Christianity CAN BE PROVEN RIGHT.

    Lol, if sth can be proven right, there's no debate on it then.
    Do you see any debate on 1 + 1 = 2? No right, because it's already proven mathematically that 1 + 1 =2 , so no one in their right mind, would start a debate on that.

    I end my 'discussion' here.
     
  7. apollon

    apollon Well-Known Member

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    religion can be proven? did i say that? (o_O) i agreed with you that religion cannot be proven.

    however, you wanted me to support my claims of the one true path through Jesus Christ and i did that. i have to use the bible.

    like you need to use the buddhistic scripture for the theology of reincarnation and etc.
     
  8. BabyRain

    BabyRain Doppelgänger of da E.Twin

    Yes, but whilst my claims are on the theories of the Buddhism teachings, your claim of Christianity as the ONE TRUE PATH also indirectly attacking other religions per se. So, of course I have to say that you CANNOT PROVE your religion is the ONLY way or even the RIGHT way.

    I never asked you to prove your existence of God or what not, just when you said it's the ONLY way, it indirectly attacking my beliefs, and every other non-believers for that matter. So, I believe we have the right to ask you to come up with a SOLID PROOF.
     
  9. apollon

    apollon Well-Known Member

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    lol. in essence, i agree with you. the whole of missionary works is to reach the unheard and lead the ones that are weary and confused back.

    the bible is the center of Christian's life. i agree, a missionary/pastor cannot replace the holy bible.


    there isn't really anything to discuss. she is stubborn as a mule, and choose to view Christianity as a hated evil religion. unforunately, i've come to accept that another Christian will hopefully lead her to Christ, but it won't be me.


    bye bye hiake, for now. lol.
     
  10. apollon

    apollon Well-Known Member

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    so, let me understand this. you want me to prove that christianity is the right way without using the bible?

    lol. my dear BabyRain, then why do we Christian hold the Bible so close to our hearts, if we do not need it to prove Christianity is the one true path?
     
  11. BabyRain

    BabyRain Doppelgänger of da E.Twin

    First of all, refrain from using that "My Dear" term, it's too endearing for me to endure, coming from you.

    And again, I attempt to get it through to you one last time.
    You are saying Christianity is the ONLY way correct?
    So, you are indirectly calling all the other religions FAKE, and you are calling us non-believers WRONG, am i still correct?

    So of course, by making that statement, I can demand evidence from you, proof from you even, that your BIBLE is indeed authentic and 100% correct, which you already admitted that it cannot be done, since you agreed with me that religion is something that cannot be proven.

    So please, refrain from making that statement in public coz it's gonna invite flaming from the rest of us non-believers.

    You may believe that in your heart, but to say it aloud, you are DISRESPECTING all the non-believers here. And that itself, does not warrant a respect from me. I DEMAND YOU TO SHOW ME PROOF that your religion is true, because you called mine a fake. Get it?
     
  12. apollon

    apollon Well-Known Member

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    True, i can't physically prove that religion is right or wrong. However, the centerial figure of Christianity is Jesus Christ and He is real. And His method of proof is miracles. And that isn't only for Christian but accepted by Jewish and other enthic groups.

    If Jesus Christ is real, then His teaching is Real, and therefore, the Bible is Real. and Then Christianity is real.

    now, how to prove that Christ is real. through his miracle -- i've posted this before, but using mathematics, the possibility of Christ come forward ...

     
  13. BabyRain

    BabyRain Doppelgänger of da E.Twin

    Let me get this straight now, Are you saying you can prove your religion is RIGHT?
     
  14. apollon

    apollon Well-Known Member

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    the main reason why Christians would profess that Christ the only way for salvation is b/c it is written in the Bible.

    now, if you want to dismiss the Bible as evidence of this doctrine. then we can analysis who this Jesus Christ is. For He is real, and He actually lived on the Earth for 33 years.

    That is not denible. So, who is this Jesus Christ? well, if He is God, then what he does must be righteous and abiding the law. And Jesus Christ did live a sinless life.

    so, if Jesus Christ is real and the son of God, then His teachings must be true, and if His teachings says He is the only way of salvation. Then that must be true as well.
     
  15. BabyRain

    BabyRain Doppelgänger of da E.Twin

    Just because Jesus existed means He is really God? Who can prove that? What do you mean by IF He is God? Written in the Bible of course.

    Don't forget the Muslim religion also mentioned Jesus, just that they disclaim the fact that Jesus is the son of God. Now if there are two contradictory claims, there cannot be ONE SOLID CLAIM until it is PROVEN with SOLID EVIDENCE besides using the BIBLE OR THE QUR'AN.

    Who told u about the miracles? The Bible, yet again.
     
  16. chickenutbread

    chickenutbread Well-Known Member

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    about the existence of Jesus as son of God: it cannot be proven physically and does take faith. but more than faith, belief. i don't know how to explain the difference between faith and belief; all i know is that belief is different from faith.

    about the miracles: yes, it is in the Bible but also happens today. :)
     
  17. BabyRain

    BabyRain Doppelgänger of da E.Twin

    Exactly, the existence of Jesus as son of God cannot be proven. Or else no one would be having this debate right now.

    And yes, miracles also happen today, but no one can prove it's because of the "Christian God" per se; it just proves there's something higher than us.

    And CNB, in case you skim posts :p I am NOT asking you to prove anything; but because Apollon just called my beliefs and other religions as fake, I believe I have the right to do so.
     
  18. chickenutbread

    chickenutbread Well-Known Member

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    oh, i know. i "looked over" some previous posts. i just want to answer any questions you might have to ease some of this tension. :p so, any questions? fire away.
     
  19. apollon

    apollon Well-Known Member

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    Miracles are described in the Bible. Then lets use the mathematical analogy i used previously ... what is the possible of someone fulfilling all of the prophesy (about them) in their lifetime.

    it was either Jesus Christ was extremely lucky. or He was divinely gifted, hence God. but luck can only play in the instance of fulfilling prophesy. it doesn't work for healing the blind, sick, and etc. so, He need to power of God to do that. well, one can agrue that the disciple themselves can also healed and preform miracles with the power of the Holy Spirit, they are not God (even though we are consider children of God, but i'll probably get to that later). However, Jesus Christ is God, and that is held accountable on the reality that He was able to rise from the dead.

    how do we know this? There were hundreds of people that saw this and many of this people wrote it down. even the jewish leaders were astonish to find Jesus' tomb to empty. there was even a jewish high court member that wrote the possibility of Jesus Christ really risen from the dead and that the disciples are telling the truth.
     
  20. BabyRain

    BabyRain Doppelgänger of da E.Twin

    Wow, thousands of people witnessed david copperfield cross the Great Wall of China. Does that mean it's true per se?

    Again, even the event of Jesus rising from dead is only recorded in the BIBLE and not proven to be true from any other source. So what say you???

    I already said, prove to me WITHOUT using the BIBLE.