You know, I get the sense of shame (or the fear of it), in your question; your pride in your ethnicity and cultural background is in conflict with your sense of moral and ethics. Let's sidestep your feelings (and your question) for a moment, and I suggest you take a look at this problem through the lens of another. Suppose you're a twenty something living in Tokyo, Japan, where all your life you've been fairly insulated from world events and world politics, and never really had much of an interest in history. One day you read about Chinese protesters in a place you've never heard about, talking about the war your country was involved in, and demanding apologies from Japan for war crimes? You think; what the hell? Didn't Japan lose the war? Like, we got atom bombed, right? And like didn't millions of Japanese die then? We got the shit kicked out of us, if anything doesn't the world owe us an apology instead? Sheesh... like, the nerve that people have... But then, as you get older you see more and more of these protests. So many in fact, that you decide to join a group to defend Japan's honor, and demand apologies from those that would soil Japan's good name and reputation. You research extensively and find all sorts of material to provide evidence of Japan being victim of politics and that it did no wrong in the war; that its conduct was above board, and according to international acceptable standards for conduct of warring parties. But, thats not enough, you actively seek and search for evidence amongst Chinese sources, to prove to them that their own countrymen's evidence will exonerate Japan. Your research journey initially provides great resources to back your claims, but once in a while, you read things that disturb you. It wasn't the evidence you were hoping to find. Instead, there seems to be a lot of this manufactured or fabricated "evidence" to smear Japan! Now you're angry. You decide to read all of these things, as disgusting as they are, just to know your political enemy's tactics, to better prepare to refute their baseless claims and lies. The more you read however, the more disturbed you become. Not only have Chinese witnesses made statements, but foreign nationals too, have come forth to support those claims against Japan, Why... they've even written propaganda books libeling Japan. And they have so many pictures too... Surely these must be photoshopped or somehow digitally manipulated, right? I mean, I know that Japan wouldn't have done shit like that. Damn, they even have movies of Japanese soldiers dragging little children and throwing them into a pit... like, what the fuck??? That can't be real, can it? And what's he going to do with that knife??? Oh my god, I think I'm going to be sick... Politically, sometimes it takes a walk around the block to get next door. However, its an illuminating journey well worth taking. Many Japanese today realize that their country's conduct during the war was not anything that they themselves can morally or ethically support. It isn't because they don't love Japan or their fellow Japanese, and it doesn't mitigate the fact that Japan was not only atomic bombed, but fire bombed nearly to oblivion. And yes, American troops used Japanese comfort women, and raped and murdered Japanese during the occupation after Japan lost. However there is clear and convincing evidence that Japan did commit criminal atrocities not only against the Chinese, but throughout Asia during the war. Honest Japanese accept this. It isn't that their country or culture is bad, their country behaved badly then. And they, as honest Japanese, would rather work at accepting blame where blame is due, so that both countries can heal and move on. Talking the first step down the road of political honesty is probably the biggest and admittedly the hardest one of all. Throughout history, China was the victim in many instances. But in present day Tibet, it certainly isn't. In many ways, the PRC is behaving just like war time Japan, an imperialistic expansionist country willing to rape its neighbor for their resources. Not enough Japanese stood up to prevent it from happening to China then. The question today is, will enough Chinese stand up to prevent it from happening to Tibet? Ralph
@ hiake thnx for a quick sumup, dont you think thats morally wrong? or surely theres more then tibet not wanting to give up resources @ raphrepo thanks to your detailed veiw with another conflict between area's. so how you see it, is that it really depends who's eyes you see it through. well really ive read over and over many times what you read but i still dont see the real connection your hoping for me to see.
Morally wrong? You mean China trying to rob Tibet blind while claiming they have EVERY right to do so? Yeah, but it's not like China has any moral standard when it comes to its own interest. Lies, deception and violence are all fair game when there's something to gain. Well, if "not wanting to give up resources" is not enough, how about all the Tibetans' freedom and rights to their own resources? I thought Ralphpo's example was an extraordinary one, delicately trying to NOT hurt the oh-so-proud-and-righteous Chinese parochial sentiment. But I guess it isn't the same for everyone when it comes to knowledge in politics and history.
My admittedly colorful illustration was for the purpose of suggesting that if you looked at the world through someone else's eyes, perhaps you can see yourself a bit more clearly. Questions of morals and ethics are best done as blind studies, that is, judgment without the baggage of personal emotional involvement. But being as that flight of fancy was a bit tangential for you, here's the blunt instrument approach; if you believe yourself to be fair, moral, and ethically without question, it sometimes takes tremendous courage to stand on those moral grounds. The kind of courage I'm talking about is the German who stands up for his Jewish neighbor about to be forcefully taken to a camp; Americans who marched on Washington, calling for an end to involvement in Vietnam then, and Iraq now; a white man standing in the way of a white mob about to lynch a black man. Granted those are extremes, and quite dangerous. However, they serve as a framework for what true moral courage really is. When we, as good and fair minded people are face with something that, in our hearts, know to be absolutely wrong, are we brave enough to speak out against it? Many Chinese who courageously spoke up against China for its incursions into Tibet have been subjected to not only ridicule, but accusations of being a traitor to their own kind. Some have been threatened, a few have even been beat up. When you're in your classroom debating Tibet, the reason why a great defense of China eludes you is because there really is no great defense for naked aggression. You have nothing to come back with against those accusations of China being an aggressor because in this case, China really is an aggressor. You have to decide then, what is more important to you as an individual; your political solidarity to China (because it is full of people ethnically similar to you, so you keep defending their actions no matter how low they sink) or your sense of morality and integrity (that is, right versus wrong, where you can admit that while you love China and the Chinese, their political direction sucks and it embarrasses the hell out of you and you wish they would stop that shit in Tibet right now). Only you can make that choice because you alone, will have to live with it. Ralph
in mine opinion, the tibet still consider a part of china...there is nothing more to complaine or argue...
I am tempted to say that said statement is as ignorant (not to mention offensive) as saying Canada is a state of the US. In your dreams, may be.
LOL... That's sorta like saying the victim of a wife beater is still married; its technically accurate, but leaves a lot to be desired. I also question your assessment of "there is nothing more to complaine (sic) or argue..." Seriously, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions, no matter how scathingly insensitive or inaccurate. Like one of the replies that I posted earlier, there are plenty of denialists (for a variety of reasons, but mostly borne of ignorance) in all quarters. My suggestion is only that anyone who is so strongly assured of their position, to look at what they base their beliefs on (historical and verified fact versus idle supposition). Ralph
you know, when i become famous im gunna mention all that because its such a reality. thanks man for your time for putting up with my stupidity without the need to flame and such. =)
^Ralphpo is the rationalist, calm and articulated (with tons of historic references), while my motto is "flame first, argue later, if all fails, resort to (extreme) violence" I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toe, except for those who believe I am sent by some mean spirit; in which case, I will step on your toes all over again. LOL
wow...i never had given much thought to this, until now. i agree that tibet is trying to use the beijing olympics to promote tibet's freedom. and what really pissed me off was what sharon stone said about the sichuan earthquake. have u guys heard it yet? made me so mad! that lass...
imho.. the people have the rights, and the government has the might, everything will be done when it's settled this way >.>
While the PRC government is always keen to say that they respect people's "rights" according to the law, its past practice has been to ignore the law when it gets in the way of the government. Such that, while yes, people in the PRC have certain rights, it is solely at the pleasure or convenience of the government. And as for the government having the "might" it only does so until it pisses off enough people. That is, the government has the might only so long as the people don't take it away. The idea of revolution is not new in China. The Chinese people have had a long and well documented history of armed rebellion if the politics are ripe. There is nothing that will guarantee the existence of the PRC as we know it today. Considering that in the last century alone, "China" had been a monarchy, a balkanized republic, and finally a communist state; historically speaking, its too soon to declare that the PRC (as a political entity) will last any longer than any of it predecessors. Ralph
