u give complete props to Shaq in his prime winning titles... but do u remember the teams that they faced in the finals? which team actually had ANY decent big man to match up against Shaq in the Laker's 3peat? WHICH team actually matched up AT ALL against SHAQ? NONE... not until the Pistons with BenWallace and Sheed... I'm not trying to take nething away from Shaq... i do agree he was a beast in his prime... but ur trying to make it seem like a corvette beating down on a civic is something incredibly impressive... u seem to always argue that it's all on Kobe... yes he had bad games... but is it necessarily his fault? u seem to put all his problems on himself, u give no mention to the players he had to play against, the team he had to play against, the DEFENSE he had to play against... have u ever tried playing ball where two guys were constantly on u? Pierce and Posey were practically hounding Kobe the entire finals, even Garnett swung by for a triple team... I've argued this point all ready, it's true LBJ wouldn't have been shut down like Kobe against the Celtics... he is athletically better, i've never argued otherwise, but the matchups between the Celtics and the Lakers is just too much and completely different from the Cavs... that's what the NBA in the present is all about... MATCHUPS... the Lakers clearly just don't match up well against the Celtics... regardless of who's playing... if ur 4 other guys can't do shit, how do they draw defense away for u? And plz... Powe doing well corelates to how Kobe is poor offensively? the problem was there was no inside defense on the Lakers side... nuff said... just look at the Western Conference Finals... Duncan was killing the Lakers inside... 15boards a game? almost 25pts a game? they needed to guard one guy inside, and Gasol and Odom combined couldn't even do that correctly...
Lakers w/ Shaq and Phil Jackson = Champion Lakers w/ Kobe and Phil Jackson = Chokejob 'Nuff said on this issue I don't need to argue that all the chokejob is on Kobe because he's in every single one of them. If guys are hounding him with stiff D, shouldn't he pass more and trust his teammates like Jordan did when he plays in the playoff (Paxson, Kerr, to name a few). He has his bad games in the worst possible time, he likes to throw his teammates under the bus, he likes to b**ch about this and that, and worst of all, in Colorado, he's a rapist. Don't give me the matchup BS. Lebron has shits (yup, basically garbage) on his team yet he tries to keep his team in the game against the Celtics, to the point of a very, very close game 7 where they scared the shit out of the Celtics' pants with one of his best game in the playoff ever (45,5,6,2,48%). Kobe has one of the best coaches ever in Phil, an All-Star PF in Gasol and a very talented SF in Odom, a clutch guy in Fisher, yet Kobe looked very lackluster in 4 of the 6 games with a chokejob in Game 2 where he settles for jumpshots in Game 2 (which lead to misses, fastbreak feed to Powe who accumulated 21 pts). Isn't Kobe a leader and the best player in the NBA now? My ass he is. On Powe, where was he after Game 2, no where. If the interior defense is really, really weak, then shouldn't him dominate again? And don't BS about Duncan. He's shooting less than 43% in 3 out of 5 games, and needs 25+ shot to get to 25+ points. Talk about efficiency -rolleyes. Didn't the interior defense did a pretty good job on him? The only thing he kills them is on the board, and that's it. I'm beginning to wonder if you actually watch the games...
This season was close, but starting next season as lebron refines his game more he will clearly be better. Lebron is just too strong and fast for anyone to guard him.
i pick kobe because kobe is quicker , better shooter and have better ball handling skills than lebron.
First of all, chokejob will mean blowing huge lead in the 4th quarters, shooting like crap for at least half a series. Pippen shoots 44% or above in 3 out of 7 games, but he helps take a series to 7 and kept it close, which Kobe failed to do in 08 with a team AS GOOD AS the Celtics. Also, there's a reason when Jordan (best player in that year and in the history of the game) came back, Pippen was back as the 2nd option. Secondly, if you're a basketball fan, you would know they actually overachieved with the team they had because the Knicks had the better team that year, btw. Didn't Kobe has an all-star forward (Gasol) to pass to? And a talented #3 which Jordan in his prime years never had in Odom (who can shoot, pass, and rebound)? Kobe has a team as talented as the Celtics. So why did Kobe failed? Kobe didn't show up in the most important series in his career. He's a choker plain and simple. [Matchup BS?] If you're talking about the Heats VS the Mav Final last season, two words, Phantom Fouls. Cleveland-Washington, injuries (Butler, Arenas 06-07; Arenas 07-08) always plagued the Wizards (with the exception of 05-06, with 3 of the 6 games determined by one points). The better team will always win unless they choked. Game Two, it's a nice comeback by the Lakers, but too little too late (a choker's characteristic). It doesn't matter if it's close because they down 0-2 after the lost. Pretty embarrassing when Leon Powe owned the Lakers in that game. Then the opposite happened in Game 4, and the Lakers lost the game with a 24 points lead at the start of 4th. :laugh:-rotfl Anyway... Powe got his 21 points in 14 min of playing time. If he can't get it started, why should the team play him more. 4 of the 6 games, he played more than 9 min, only once he made an impact. And as I said about Duncan, I'm not talking about his FT. I'm concern about his shot-making ability in the Lakers series. Duncan's a 50.8% FG career shooter. He shot 42.5% against the Lakers. So did he struggles in the series and did the Lakers' interior defense done a good job? Should be pretty easy to answer. As a FYI, rebound is pretty important, but turnover and shooting efficiency are much more important.
Trust? What trust? In the first two quarters of Game 4 when they had a large lead, Kobe took 4 shots only. The two quarters later when they blown the lead, he shot 15 times while making only 6. Tell me, when did he trust his teammates and when did he started chucking his shots? I'll give you a clue, trusting your teammates mean passing = less shooting. Ok, I never said Gasol = Pippen, but Kobe has a second option to pass to, as well as a primary third option, in which Jordan never had (Kukoc. Plain and simple, Kobe is a choker. The Magics was a really good team, but they definitely weren't better than the Rockets (Olajuwon, Drexler and better role players). Not to mention Del Harris was a crappy coach (and still is). Other teams don't have the best player in the NBA right now. Not to mention when Bynum when down, the Grizziles gifted Gasol (All-Star PF) to the Lakers for pennies on a dollar (Really, Kwame Brown and a PG which Grizziles has a bunch of?) Yes, it's his fault they were in a deep hole early in the game (4/10, 9 points in the first half). It was too little too late. It's his choker mentality. As for Game 4, read my previous comment. He should stop chucking shots when he feels like it. What are you reading anyway? He got 21 points in 14 min. If he's as productive as that game, shouldn't he gets more than 2 to 4 points in 9+ min of action? It's simple mathematical logic. As I told you, he's shooting like Kobe in the Final. 43% from your 51% career shooting is not doing good, regardless of what he got point-wise. He didn't make all-star team year after year shooting 43% and chucking shot like Kobe had done for his whole career. How is turnover and shooting efficiency more important than rebounding? You steal more, you get more possession as well as taking away your opponent's possession, and vice-versa. Turnover can also create more fast-break points for your team. On shooting efficiency, which you rather have, a guy shooting 30 shots getting 30 points or a guy shooting 16 shots and getting 30 points. Nuff said. I hope I don't need to explain this. -whistle
bold... and my last response... it's getting ridiculous... emphasis on fast break points? i give up... tap out... i'm not responding nemore... lol fast break points... see where that got the SUNS...
First, how many of the assists come when they are building the lead (answer 6). Check stats based on quarter by quarter, not the whole game. Kobe obviously tries to chunk more shots in the 2nd half when their lead evaporated. Say what you want, but this is a fact and it's pointless to deny it. Odom is more talented than than any option Jordan had. Fact is fact. Don't make up excuses when Kobe can't utilized Odom to the best of his capability. When a guy like Kobe who hogged up all the shot, who do you think this affect? Not the 2nd option because there's enough shot for him. A basketball fan will know Olajuwon is much better than Shaq (not to mention the Magics are a young team against an experience team). The Magics-Rockets is not the same as The Lakers-Celtics series. Lakers and Celtics are both manned by experienced players. And you chose to conveniently ignore the coaching advantage the Lakers have. Rudy Tomjanovich > Del Harris, and Phil Jackson > Doc River. Kobe is a choker, and nothing more. Your homerism for Kobe really show here. This is another argument. On topic, he got all the needed components to win the Final. He choked plain and simple. Whatever excuses you trying to make for Kobe, it's an excuse. It's his fault he shoot poorly and got into foul trouble. Wow.. amazing. So there's a big difference playing 2 min a quarter as opposed 3 min a quarter. Wow... really... wow. The truth, he was never relevant except Game 2 (and the only reason why he got 5 min more (lol) because the team had a big lead. If you don't know mathematical logic, I'll be happy to give you website for you to learn, ok? -roflyawn I think it's ridiculous on your end. You can't win if you can't put up points. Why the Rockets can't get out of the first round even though their defense is consistently in the top 5. LMAO. And you're one funny guy. Turnover is part of defense by taking their the ball out of your opponent's hand. Creating tougher shot thus leading to low FG%, which is efficiency, for the other team is considered to be defense. Rebounding has two types, defensive and offensive rebound, so it's not merely a "defensive" skill. Oh, don't confuse with fast pace style the Suns and Warriors like to play with fastbreak point. Any team that can create a good amount of fastbreak points off turnover regardless playing a half-court offense or a fast pace offense.. At one point, the Spurs led the league in fast break point for 5 weeks. I would suggest you read up on basketball fundamental.
lol manicfreek, are u joking? "Odom is more talented than than any option Jordan had" lol, pippen? unless ur talking bout 3rd option, then rodman? rodman > odom by far. "A basketball fan will know Olajuwon is much better than Shaq" lol that's a good one too, olajuwon can't stop shaq on his prime, you've obviously never seen shaq do the tornado after posting up, that's impossible to stop. "Whatever excuses you trying to make for Kobe, it's an excuse. It's his fault he shoot poorly and got into foul trouble." false, not all foul trouble are based on bad performances, infact, a player of kobe caliber definitely gets away w/ the dirty moves and will only get called for it occasionally, not to mention shooting poorly is part of the game, if its called "choking" when you shoot poorly, when hell everyone choked too then i bet? "Turnovers are rare in and of itself, and most of the time they're mental mistakes by players and therefore there's less control over say a rebound... by aoes" i totally agree. its all mental mistakes, if a player is ontop of his game he'll commit max out 3/4 turnovers full game. in the end, y u say "Rebounding has two types, defensive and offensive rebound, so it's not merely a "defensive" skill.", he didn't say anything about rebounds lawl
Oh noe, another Kobe homer has appeared. I'm talking about third option, from both end of the floor (and specifically, I was talking about offense option). I never knew Rodman can shoot a jumpshot... Not to mention, Odom is a triple threat (scoring, rebounding, passing) while Rodman is a one-trick pony. Post that on a basketball forum and you would be ridiculed. Olajuwon is better than Shaq on both end of the floor that year. Shaq can score, but he's nothing on the defensive end. On the career side, Hakeem might have the better career since who did Shaq played against in his prime? (Oh btw, unless you got numbers when both men were on the court in that Final, saying Olajuwon can't stop Shaq doesn't mean much if he gets most of his point against the backup) From the man himself: Shaq stated, "Hakeem has five moves then four countermoves, that gives him 20 moves." That's 19 moves more than Shaq. (I know it's a joke, but Hakeem's footwork is second to none for a big man.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__fHT0BgoCQ He's a superstar. He got a lot of favorable calls, yet he still in foul trouble? Hm... A choke. It's pretty funny. So you are using the "mental mistakes" as proofs to say there's less control while accumulating a greater number of rebound, the opposing team needs the other team to miss a lot so you have a chance to grab the ball, isn't there less control? Can't "mental mistakes" be apply here if the opposing team didn't shoot to their capability or if they didn't grab a defensive rebound (a fundamental skill)? Wow... funny logic here using "mental mistakes". -bowroflarms Also, he's implying Rebounding = Defense. Please read what he actually posted the last 2-3 posts, "lawl." So what is defense? Defense is [1] limiting scoring (low FG%), [2] creating turnover (Steal, forcing the other team out of bound, etc), and [3] boxing out and grabbing defensive rebound. Answer this, if a player from "Team A" didn't grab the rebound of a miss from "Team B", and a player from "Team B" grab the ball, what does it called? An offensive rebound, right? And how many offensive rebounds can a team/player usually get? Usually about the same as turnover of a team/player, right? So how can you say turnovers are rare when offensive rebounds are about as rare? In defense, rebounding is as important as creating/preventing turnover. This is really simple stuffs here. If you want to dispute this, do some research first, PLEASE. http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=608 I'm not even discussing the more advance stats in measuring defense because I think discussing it here is pretty much pointless.
lol? another kobe homer? i choose lebron over kobe, learn to read and stop acting so ignorant in your argument, because obviously you don't know everything when you say: for odom vs rodman, you're so wrong, you're clearly an offensive minded fan, "scoring, rebounding, passing" LOL triple threat? LOL JOKE? rodman's rebound was far superior to odom, hahahahahaha. passing? oh okay, odom has good pass http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSxgjTaKDrc for sure. yeh okay 3apg, im impressed. as for hakeem vs shaq, hakeem better stats then shaq in the finals? LOL? maybe look @ age difference, yeah okay. ignorance is bliss when you can compare such maturity to a third year player? yeah okay good comparssion there, let's compare rose to baron next why won't we. "He's a superstar. He got a lot of favorable calls, yet he still in foul trouble? Hm... A choke." LOL IS THAT A JOKE? GETTING INTO FOUL TROUBLE MAKES HIM A CHOKE? LOL LOL I GUESS ALL ALLSTARS ARE CHOKE THEN "Answer this, if a player from "Team A" didn't grab the rebound of a miss from "Team B", and a player from "Team B" grab the ball, what does it called? An offensive rebound, right? And how many offensive rebounds can a team/player usually get? Usually about the same as turnover of a team/player, right? So how can you say turnovers are rare when offensive rebounds are about as rare? In defense, rebounding is as important as creating/preventing turnover. This is really simple stuffs here. If you want to dispute this, do some research first, PLEASE." why are still talking about rebounds? Are you that brain dead or ignorant in reading other people's opinions? obviously, because i didn't mention a single thing about offensive rebounding being more rare then TOs. oh and if you donm't think "mental mistakes" exists in professional sports, lol you're obviously spending too much time reading up on stats then watching the actual games.
Who say you can't be a Kobe's homer AND a LeBron's homer? I know plenty of people who blindly support all the superstars in the NBA. lmao. I'm wrong? Odom's line: 15.6/8.9/4.4. Triple threat. He handles the ball less this season as he's the third option this season. And what's the purpose of that video? All I'm seeing is he's having a brain cramp on that play and nothing more. Doesn't explain to me why he's a "bad" passer as implied by you. And I appreciate you don't put words into my post, as I never post about Odom's better rebounder than Rodman, and Odom's not close to Rodman, but Odom can grab rebounds. :nuts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66x4-ePsIYQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwEAAtzHP-8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsiBhUBLP3o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXfiVMGBFZU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD1SeITA2XE Man, there's really no hope for you. I swear. Every analysts out there believe Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the series. And you, some dude who doesn't even know the simpliest fundamental argued otherwise? Laughable... very funny. And did you even bother to look at the video where Hakeem schooled Shaq? Hakeem is better than Shaq that year, and his team is better than Shaq's team. Not to mention the argument is about the Rockets' being a much better team than the Magics and never was Hakeem and Shaq in the first place (read the posts again). What don't you understand? Learn to read [again]. :ugh: Getting yourself into foul trouble in a Final game where yourself get star treatment on [non-]calls? Choke. Maybe he shouldn't get so nervous so he doesn't choke again. Are you stupid or just plain blind and likes to yap BS? Aoes argued [or implied] rebounding is important in defense. You bought up the point we, as in Aoes and I, aren't arguing about defense (rebound, specifically). I think you should try to read again [not a surprise]. In defense, rebounding and turnover are rated the same in term of importance. Get that inside your brain, OK? I never said mental mistakes don't happen in smoke, but blaming every turnovers on mental mistakes are excuses plain and simple. Steal is a skill, and that's why you see almost the same 10 guys in I don't watch the game? How do you know? Are you my mother? I actually watch the game from courtside for about 30 games a season. You? Yeah right. -rolleyes
are u brain dead maniac? i think you are. for one, i didn't claim shaq was superior to hakeem, but for hakeem to stop shaq at his prime? get real, he would of had as much trouble guarding shaq as any centers in all eras. kobe homer? LOL yeah, i think kobe is a superstar, and probably the best in all of the world. why cal him a choke? who's your #1 player then huh? so i can call you so and so homer, obviously you don't have one. so does 99% of the world agree that kobe is probably #1, i guess you like being an outcast and proving everyone that kobe is a choke rather then a star LOL support all allstars? yeah ofcourse, thats what an NBA fan does, appreciate the atheletes at its best. LOLOL. good one, you just seem like a freaken hater. if you're too idiotic to understand y i posted that video of odom then you're the hopeless one, it was just some humor in a post that was seemingly more serious then it should of been. why the hell would of used that video to argue odom as a non efficient passer? he makes good plays yes, but look @ all the videos u posted of odom's passes. they are great, yes. but look @ those teams suns/raptors? 07 celtics? let's see him make those passes against better defenses kthanks, and laker's phil jackson triangle offense revolves around odom being a passer, so obviously he works on it all practice long. LOL i don't know the fundamentals? what the fuck are you talking about? seriously? your insults and arguments have ZERO proof. and that just proves how ignorant you are, probably some rich kid who think he's the shit cuz he goes to 30 courtside games, YEAH OKAY. maybe i can't afford the courtside, but at least i've been to the games and sat on the lower bowls, that's the same as courtside in terms of dedication to loving this game. LOL kobe is a choke right? i guess all the game winning shots he toke in the playoffs/regular season itsn't accounted for, you're just a fucking hater, and that's why you're bagging on kobe, and trying to support your argument w/ these retarded stats #s like oh how ODOM is a superstar or someshit i blame all turnovers on mental mistakes? you're freaken clueless dude because obviously you don't read what i wrote. i said that large sums of turnovers are a mental mistakes, not necc. the common 3/4 turnovers a game that a guard or forward might do, but the additional turnovers. if you are pulling stuff out of your ass to try and put words in my mouth, then obviously this thread and whole disccussion is pointless, so why don't you go back to your "basketball forums" to a place where you think other people are highly as intellect as you are of the NBA so that you'll read what they write, then learn to analysis others argument to its fullest before continious ranting and come back thanks im thru w/ this thread now, never thought such ignorance would ever exist in PA and get me so worked up ugh
How can a stupid person called another brain dead? Nice try. -dead Please don't change the subject [yet again]. Hakeem was better than Shaq that year, hence the Rockets were the huge favorite to win the Final in 95. This is the argument, okay? Basically right now, you're just repeating what you posted before, and it's not related to anything. And on Kobe, can you show me proof why Kobe wasn't a choke in the biggest series of his career? He did bad whenever he wanted to be the primary option (04 against Pistons, 08 against Celtics). All I here from you is nonsense about he's the best player right now? That's not proof, that's assumption on your part. Being the best player in a sport doesn't mean you can't be a choke. ARod is the best player in baseball and he choked everytime in the postseason in a Yankees uniform. Again, you're changing the subject. YOU are the one that said Odom can't pass for shit. I showed 6 videos to argue otherwise. So now you're trying to make excuses why Odom can pass so good. You don't do passes behind the back if you're not good. You are making excuses because you're wrong [not surprising]. All I need is a yes or no on whether Odom is a good passer or not. Please don't try to avoid the question or changing to a non-relevant subject. Anyway, yes, that video is pointless because it doesn't prove Odom is a bad passer. Humor, yes, but proof that Odom can't pass, no. Zero proof? I think that's what you provided. I gave video and stats and link to support my opinion. What did you give? "Kobe is the best player in the NBA." uke: LMAO, you're a comical dude. And to dismiss something like turnover as "mental mistakes" is pretty sad. Oh, btw, I don't think I'm the shit because I go to 30 courtside games. If you didn't bring up the "spending too much time reading up on stats then watching the actual games," I won't even bother to bring up that point. Read what you posted before you actually trying to make something out of nothing. If Kobe is the best player in the world, shouldn't he also play at the same level in the biggest game of the year? He didn't, and that's why he's a choke. Fool me once (04 Final), I give him a break. Fool me twice (08 Final), he's a damn choker. I can't argue with a guy just ignore all the proofs (Game 4 choke, appalling Final performance, etc) in the world just because it disproved your opinion on Kobe. It's farcical that people goes thru all sorts of length to defend a player. Who posted that... let's see. That's you right? Last season, the most a player turnovered the ball is 3.6 times (by Nash). You said that if a player is on top of his game, he'll committed 3-4 times max... Oh look, most guys average a bit less than that, do that means mental mistakes don't plague most of their turnover according to you? Oh wow, this is amazing. Straight from the horse's mouth. Learned the fundamental of basketball before going head on in an argument. Also, learn to read because you keep changing the subject at hand and avoiding the question I asked you. Oh, and who is the ignorant one? The guy who will spend time insulting me ON another thread (hint: NFL) and can't admit he's wrong or the guy who provided ample proofs supporting his argument... -whistle
okay final post here, LOL me stupid? do you know me? probably not, video? you obviously didn'tr read my input of the videos you posted. look at the teams he did those fancy passes against. find me 60 more of those kind of passes and i'll give u props, otherwise shut it about the video, stats are there, i give u that much only. "Odom is a triple threat (scoring, rebounding, passing) while Rodman is a one-trick pony." my argument was that rodman was a superior third option to that of odom, maybe i didn't state it right and decided to flame odom instead, which was actually pretty poor of me, but triple thread? LOL that's pretty funny. odom is garbage in comparsion to rodman's effort on both ends of the floor. changing the subject? LOL i simply stated shaq was in development, and that hakeem would struggle vs shaq when he was w/ the lakers. it was only his third year in this league, with a inferior team. yes, his stats were monster, and like you stated before, hakeem did beat him in the finals. what does that prove? absolutely nothing aside for the fact that hakeem was better then him at this time with a better team. did i mention a single thing about hakeem/rockets not being the favorite? lol? no? funny huh? i try to come up with an argument to your "A basketball fan will know Olajuwon is much better than Shaq" although this is incredibly unrelated to the topic at hand, and then you blow things out of proposition by saying how you're off topic and that hakeem/rockets were the favorites LOL (no shit they were the favorites, did i ever say they weren't? way to keep repeating!-rolleyes-rolleyes ) it is my assumption that kobe is the best player in the world? are u not keeping up w/ espn/yahoo/nba analysts? they all agreed last year, oh wait; i guess they're all idiotic stupid people like me too i guess. and ur words are superior to all lol -rotfl-rotfl i mean why else was kobe named mvp, because he chokes a lot? LOL joke... -rotfl-rotfl "he'll commit max out 3/4 turnmovers." thjat's clearly what i stated right ? game 1 - kobe bryant 4 turnover, game 2, kobe bryant - 4 turn over, game 3 kobe bryant - 4 turn overs. one expection is that he got 6 in game 5. that doesn't mean people don't make mistakes, holy crap, you act as if these players are perfect. get a fucking clue, mental mistakes DOES exists, regardless of how you put it. CHOKE/DEFENSE PRESSURE, whatever you want to say, unless your a professional player or a sports analysis, then i don't see how you would know otherwise what causes large amounts of turnovers. you're so simpleminded and bias that you can probably never open up to other people's argument right? so what i just wrote here will prob be utterly ignored and you'll be like you just repeated the same thing or that im off topic, but obviously i didn't cause it's all in response to your repetitive rants. that's why this thread is extremely irritating, but oh well , life is filled with "brain dead people" -whistle
as of now kobe, lebron's good and he's getting better but I don't think he's ever going to be better than kobe. ppl compare kobe to MJ. Will lebron really be that good? I don't think so.
