Many of today's young weren't yet born when Chinese tanks and troops killed thousands of Chinese students who had been advocating reforms in 1989. The PRC government still remains tight lipped about the whole affair. Now it seems that perhaps the conscience of one soldier who had participated in the slaughter has gotten the better of him. He is publicly acknowledging his regret and his role in those savage events against his own people. However, the PRC government would like nothing better than to keep all this under the rug <_<: ***WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT Spoiler In a rush? For a quick synopsis, just read the red highlighted lines. Original television broadcasts from 1989: What is the biggest shock to me is the unmistakable and repeated sounds of gunfire; PRC troops directed by the Chinese Communist Party to shoot at and kill Chinese. IMHO, the Chinese people's greatest enemy is not the west; it is the CCP, a party of thieves, liars, and power hungry leaders that only want to stay in charge at the expense of the masses. How may Chinese need to die at their hands before people wake up to the lies and callousness of their own government? :rl:
Here is the History Channel's version of the horrific events: "The Chinese government billed the families of the protesters for the cost of the bullets used to kill their loved ones." Ding Zilin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jrkwtn3vc8&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LH150cgrdw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1e_fTdiOn0&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtTPewKOcZk&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTmSMfCNkOw&feature=related What is simply amazing is, that even today, and despite the internet, the majority of the Chinese population have no knowledge of the Tiananmen Square Massacre. This is primarily due to the widespread and complete control that the PRC government has on information. In other words, if you're in China, you can only know what the government allows. Chinese everywhere need to unite against this continued oppression against Chinese people. Isn't it enough that we have suffered for generations under the thumb of foreigners? Must we now suffer under a totalitarian rule of our own making? Must Chinese always kill other Chinese just to satisfy thousands of years of our cruel history? Where is the equality that was promised by the CCP to the masses? Or was there never really any intended equality; just a change of one corrupt master for another? <_<
holy sh*t.... i lived in china for 9 years and i never learned about this... and i was born in 1989 too... wow
The sad part of all this, is that the PRC masters have successfully prevented this little bit of history from becoming public knowledge. The majority of people living in China (like 99.9%) have never heard of the Tiananmen Square Massacre. There continues to this day, a huge government suppression of any news related to June 4th, 1989. The iconic photograph of a lone protester blocking a column of tanks, won the World Press Photo of the Year award for 1989, but is absolutely unknown in China because of government censorship. Picture by Charlie Cole, of The Tankman (aka the Unknown Rebel) of an anonymous Chinese man in Beijing that confronts a column of PLA tanks by placing himself directly in their way as they tried to advance down the street. He was subsequently hustled out of the way by others and his identity remains unknown to this day. Like I've always said, more Chinese have died by the hands of China than any have from conflict with the west. From my perspective, the one that kills the most of your people, is your greatest enemy. The Chinese Communist Party necessarily distracts its population by pointing the finger at western conduct towards China, to incite its population to rally against the west. If they don't do so, its population may begin to notice that the CCP is, by all accounts, an even greater danger to the Chinese people.
[/QUOTE] What a load of bullocks this is. You want to bring in the west again ? So if Chinese dies at the hand of the west, its okay for you ? What kind of moral deprivation is that ? You might dislike the CCCP, fine, but if you justify Chinese death brought on by invaders and foreigners and use it as a comparison, you are simply a traitor to your own cause of trying to advance the interest of all Chinese as a whole. What do you know about the Danger that face China as a whole with or without the CCCP ? China have a good ran of democracy under the KMT. Look what happen ? The rise of the CCCP was backed up strongly by the most prominent Chinese intelligentsia of the day. Why ? Because the KMT's abhorrent dictatorial ways was selling out China as a whole to the Japs and the encroaching west. So as quoted in your speech, the Entire China should just surrender itself to all the interest of the west ? Has it ever cross your mind what a destabilize weak China means ? You would love to see China collapse and crumble to bits so that wankers can worship some fiery wheel that resides in their tummy ? China have been a whipping boy even though the days of colonialism and fascism have receded. All the ills of the world its attributed to it. What we have now is neo imperialism in the name of globalization. What does China get for manufacturing all the goods for the west ? Pollution, blame for taking jobs away from the west and pathetic wages for the workers. But its easier to blame it on the CCCP for the abuse of the workers in China but its not okay to fault the big Companies of the west for making it happen. The west have a great 400 years of progress at the expense of its expansion and colonialism that made it rich so that it can afford the good old roost of democracy. The greatest irony of your entire ideology is that it is based on fluff verging on anarchism for the Chinese in China. Please find within yourself some dram of rationale and logic. Shouldn't China be given 400 years of uninterrupted progress to begin to come to your so call gold standards of democracy which your so jolly well are enamored with minus all the riches that the West have rob from its former colonies which include China ? And yes, China, and part of China was a colony. No amount of whitewash can alter that fact. And you have conveniently FORGOTTEN ABOUT ONE FACT. Communism is NEVER, I repeat NEVER a indigenous CHINESE ideology. It came from Marx remember that. Stalin purge more then 43,000,000 people between 1929-1953. And many more ended up in the Gulags. How many did the Fascist Mussolini and Hitler killed ? And yes, Stalin is from the west and so is Hitler and dear old Musso. Yeah Mao and the CCCP did indeed cause alot of sufferings previously, but that is history. The west wouldn't have much to boast about when you flip thru their very own historic records. So be patient. Change is inevitable. When the stomach is not full, democracy as a way of life seems distant. Once China have a mass middle class, hopefully when it enriches its population to about 60 - 70 percent, thats when change will reach an irreversible tide. The CCCP know this, but does it LOCK ITS POPULATION OUT from globalization ? Does it SEAL up its borders and live in Isolation like Burma and North Korea ? So please. You might know alot. But to troll and in an attempt to display your outright hatred towards China, you failed to even consider a measured sense of piety to remember that you are Chinese too. Are you ? It doesn't matter where you reside. You can never change the color of your skin and inheritance.
This is a bad chapter in Chinese history. They probably didn't know how to handle roiting nor did they have a riot force. I certainly hope the CCP won't repeat it.
In a rush? For a quick synopsis, just read the red highlighted lines. The problem I see here is two fold; first and foremost is the fact that the CCP is perfectly willing to kill anyone, including Chinese in order to exert its will on the people. This is the purely the act of a state that only exists to serve itself. That is, they call themselves Chinese and say they represent the Chinese people, but in fact, when the Chinese people expressed their wishes, the CCP will crush the Chinese people as they have done here. Hence their long term slogan of "For the People" has been an outright lie. It is nothing more than a propaganda tool to allow them control of the masses. This is no different from what the Manchus or Mongols in the Qing and Yuan Dynasties had done. They used the Chinese race to further their own political aims. The only difference here is that the slave masters in this case just happens to be Chinese. China is supposed to be a republic, but in fact, its style of governance is exactly like a de facto kingdom. There is no difference between the China of today and that of imperial times. There is no right or wrong when it comes to the government (as evidenced by their corruption and unwillingness to treat all equally under the law, including themselves), laws seems to be written in order to control the commoners; that is, China is under Rule By Law(don't do as I do, do as I tell you), and not Rule Of Law (no man is above the law). The Second problem is one of disinformation. The CCP has actively suppressed all information about the Tiananmen Square massacre to the Chinese. No schools teach it, references to it are deleted from texts and history books; even talking about it may cause one to be taken away and never seem again. In China, a search on Google Images for the term 'Tiananmen Square' will reveal only links to pictures of smiling western tourists in Tiananmen Square. Where as outside of China, you'll see multiple links and references to the iconic Tankman picture. In one the videos, there was an interview of university students (from the same school attended by students who started the original protest in Tiananmen) and they were shown a picture of the Tankman; none of them knew who he was, or had ever seen the picture before. In another telling incident, a young photo editor in the government controlled newspaper happened to come across the tankman photo in his newspaper's archives, and thought it would make a nice design element, and accidentally published it. He hadn't ever seen the picture before and did not know of the political significance of it. Once someone higher up the ladder sawy it and remember the government's taboo on that picture, it was immediately retracted. As for whether or not this will be repeated? I'm sure it will. You can only repress people but for so long. Chinese history is replete with examples and stories about corrupt officials and bad governance. It may have taken two and a half centuries, but China eventually overthrew the Manchu conquerors (who likewise ran China into the ground). I'm sure that the Chinese will eventually rid itself of these oppressors too. You can save the above files from your cache, or if you really want the DVD, it's available from the History Channel's web site: http://shop.history.com/detail.php?...jects&SESSID=aed542ca5eb39d5ddcf43fbcf634c0bd
Your reply is laughable. You made so many factual errors. 1. China is a Kingdom ? Did any of the old guards or Mao Tze Tung's descendant rule China as emperors now ? 2. Chinese leaders still draw a miserable pay as compared to their counterparts of the west. Heck they were executing the corrupt businessman more then the West who are more then willing to hand those crooks more bonus. Just because corruption is legitimize in the west, does not make the west more superior or righteous. Rule of law ? How many laws did the West break when it tortures and kill millions in Iraq and Afghanistan ? And for your information, all laws be it from the West or China have always been tilted in favor of the ruling elites. The only difference is one is called communism, the other is called democracy. 3. You are still muddled on your definition of Chinese. In my previous postings I have clearly indicated to you that China have many ethnic groups. Manchurian and Mongols are Chinese. Yet you persist on your divisive muddled sense of history and spilling garb when you know full well, you are pulling a fast one here. Your statement "Using the Chinese" to further their self interest is beyond comical. 4. And your final crescendo of spillage tops it all. Misinformation ? Are you quoting from the CIA sponsored links of the Chinese dissidents who have fled from China ? The Chinese knows all about Tiananmen, the Cultural revolution purges of the past. To say that they do not know or are completely ignorant of those facts are just saying that ET never say "Call Home". They just don't talk about it simply they know full well that in the entire length of China's History, China have never been so open to the rest of the world. If that is not progress, I don't know how you would benchmark progress. For a nation shrouded in Wars and domestic strive for the past 200 years, to expect China to blossom and embrace openness, free press etc overnight is simply naive. What are the conditions necessary to forestall the embrace of democracy ? For a start, mouths need feeding. Next, you need a thick layer of the middle class and income disparity must be narrowed down. You need Technological growth from all sectors that would facilitate production and innovation. You need an intelligentsia who does not preach pandemonium and anarchism and make baby stride towards introducing the concept of democracy to the Chinese without BREAKING up the entire nation. That have and will always be the foundation stone of any stable credible democratic nation. How many years of advances must China catch up before the seeds that have been planted in the last 2 decades to blossom ? It's anyone bet. China cannot afford "another great leap" forward. Political experimentation mean suicide for the entire nation. And lastly, for crying out loud, the Chinese never did overthrew the Manchus. The Qing dynasty imploded under the weight of the West and the Japs. Domestic forces within China certainly did cause alot of ruckus, but have it not been the wars that the Manchus lost to the west, it would certainly have enough resources to deal with the revolutionaries. And it was Yuan Shi Kai a former Qing officer who did the Manchus in. But did it died ? No, it was still around when the Japs restored it in Manchuria and Manchuko was its new dynastic name. Only when the Japs were defeated at the end of world war 2, then did the Qing dynasty ended. And who swept into Manchuria to get rid of the Qings ? Chinese ? It was the Russians. So get your facts right. Please.
What does this mean? So you have to be always strictly pro-Chinese per se, because you have Chinese ancestors? Doesn't sound reasonable to me. Historical objectivity should be maintained: It's about science and not about prefering one side. Sure, I can't change the colour of my skin and inheritance, but, in an open society, I have the right to live my live and form my opinions in a self-determined way.
most of my friends from china knew nothing to very little about this issue. They only found out about this issue when they came over to Australia and search for it on the internet. china did a very good job in blocking this bit of history to it public.
That means what it should mean. Your conclusion is your own and I have no share of it simply you have deliberately use one of George Bush IDIOTIC logical flow to determine that " if you are not for, then you are against". I couldn't have been clearer in my post. read it again. Remember, I too have to have the ability to use cheap denouncing rhetoric to score, but in every turn of this discussion, I have remain factual and reasonable. You should instead clarify the points with Ralph, unless you are agreeable to his insistence that Chinese dying in the hands of the foreigners can be ignored. I have asked the question, he hasn't replied yet. Cheers
Oh really ? On May 18, 1989 On the sixth day of hunger strike. Li Peng summons several student leaders for a televised talk at the Great Hall of the People. Nothing is achieved. [Full transcript of this televised meeting available.] The government prepares to declare martial law. http://tsquare.tv/chronology/May18mtg.html Note. Televised Nationwide. May 20, Martial law was announced on national television. On June 9, 5 days after the crackdown, Deng made an address to the Martial Law units. Again it was televised. Now. There was censorship, and distortion of information. That is a fact. But to say that the Chinese in China does not know its pure balderdash. Chinese are not stupid. They are more then capable to put one and one together to know the gravity of the situation. Besides, VHS video of the crackdown was being smuggled from Hong Kong into Canton. They did not know ? Right.
My work allows me to travel across the border all the time, and I work with mainlanders. I personally have not met a single mainlander who is clueless of this incident. Some may not know the full story for varies reasons, but they are definitely not clueless about it. For the government to cover up this story is next to impossible, especially with Internet cafes all over China. And don't give me the Chinese firewall excuse, cuz most of these Internet cafe have ways around it, through proxy servers.
The internet is a very powerful tool to use. Nothing can be blocked. Heck, even Edison's scandal pics were leaked out faster than muhammad ali's jabs when they really want to block it. I'm pretty sure most Mainlanders knew about this incident but won't dare to speak since they are still traumatized by all the incidents that had happened before in regards to the government vs. the people. I don't think this kind of situation can happen still. Since there are way too many cameras in circulation and cameras are cheaper than before (we're talking about $500 then vs a $5 now-- camera which does the same job) Not to mention camera phones too. all it takes is for one person to catch it on video and post it on youtube or some other popular media. Nothing can be blocked. Everything can be leaked out and the "word of the mouth" is spread faster than the internet.
Sorry, but i really don't know how you came to this conclusion... Reading his posts I can't say that he supports what the foreign powers did to the Chinese. In my view, he is saying that being killed by foreigners is horrific enough, but being killed by your own Chinese rulers is even worse. Or am I wrong?
Dear Myer, Ah great. Finally a basis of discussion can come to fruition. I have no more interest in addressing Ralph's utterance of half baked premise and crap agenda. I guess you are pretty fair minded, so let's give this topic some breath and width and look at the events of Tiananmen and examine it. I welcome all disputes of my views. But please, this is not a slug it out match to determine who is more right or more wrong. I have absolutely no interest in that. My interest is to simply look at the events and if possible conclude some vital lesson of history and its impact. What can be done to prevent such further bloodshed. I acknowledge there was deaths, coverups, and censorship. But that does not mean that the Chinese in China are ignorant to the event altogether, as reflected in my earlier postings. Instead of me posting articles and references to humor you, why don't you do abit of investigation yourself ? Don't take my word for it. My humble suggestion and might I say plea, is for you to look try to look at the following questions with impartiality and clarity. Issues are : 1. The events prior and right after the crackdown. 2. What causes it. 3. Was it a pro democracy movement or an anti capitalistic movement or both. 4. Was it cause by a factional split within the CCCP ? 5. What vital lessons can be drawn from it ? And most importantly why didn't China close its door to further modernization and integration to the world economy after it. If the CCCP is so tyrannical, and afraid, then in all accounts, and all previous observation from her history, the doors would have been welded shut. But it didn't. I am very curious why. Are you ?
