You don't think "discussing" politics and historical politics on a mainly western-asian forum with lets be honest mostly teenagers and young people in their twenties is useless? No? Well you are either very naive or unambitious. I don't believe in just talk without action. What have you done to contribute for the wellfare of the Chinese people? I am guessing nothing. You talk about how you hate the CCP and how you wish it would change. But when it comes to really doing something about it you back off. When it comes to really fighting for their freedom, you back off. People who put their own freedom and liberty on the first place unwilling to sacrifice it or even risk it to help their "so called brethren" have no moral right to speak freedom. I dare you to even start a mini campaign in your city/town to "inform" the people about whats happening in China, if you even know what is happening over there. You propable won't because you will not be willing to make sacrifices of your time, money and energy .. yes you love China or you just loves to be a "digital revolutionary" because behind a screen anyone can be anyone.
Don't sell yourself short. It seemed to have dragged you out of the woodwork and it's apparently rattling your cage just fine, LOL... My, that's being rather pompous. As if my (or anyone else's) speech here is actually contingent upon your set of preconditions or criteria; do you really think that before I voice my opinions, I need to vet them with you? FYI, whatever prattle you believe isn't even on my radar of concerns. :laugh: "I dare you?" What are we, ...twelve? I double dare YOU! LOL... I'm quite happy doing what I'm doing, spreading the truth about the oppression that Chinese people are being subjected to. If you don't like that? Well, get the CCP to stop doing all the nasty stuff that it does to Chinese people and Chinese people (like me) will stop talking bad about it. Otherwise, public opinion will be what it is. And as for the book I'd mention, it's written by a political insider that was present during the most critical parts of Zhongnanhai's decision making process that lead to the Tiananmen Massacre. If you don't think that's important and worth reading, that's your shortsighted loss; but don't even think for one minute that you could intimidate me into not telling others about it. Thus, you've said your peace, I've read it and disregarded it; time to move on.
Are you that ticked off by my last post that you have to resort to witty comments? You are not even worth my time to debate with. Continue with what you are doing if it makes you happy, by all means do that. Anyone with half a brain can see trough your soap bubble. I'm sure you will reply with yet annother stupidious post, since you have proven to be the type that can't win a real debate with arguments. Those type of people tend to sprout stupid nonsense to have the last word and I will let you have the last word since you have wasted enough of my time.
Moving back to the subject matter again : "Tiananmen Square Update" you can find out what really happened with this recently published book for US$15 inclusive free delivery from amazon.com
Here are other vids mostly in Cantonese, that were news broadcasts from Hong Kong, at the time of the incident reporting on it. The thing about this one is, there is a lot more footage of shootings, with Chinese on the street running, shouting, "I've been shot..." Also, there is footage of the PLA providing heavily armored escort for several vehicles at the break of dawn to leave the area. The identities of the vehicle's occupants remain unknown. There is also reportage about the spread of protests to other cities, reports of PLA units firing on each other, and reports of doctors in hospitals who were in the middle of treating the wounded being shot to death by PLA troops. I know there are still a lot of people out there who want this to be all "western propaganda," but it's kind of hard to believe that when its all in Chinese from Chinese sources. For those that have the patience to sit through all 20 vids (there is some duplication as these were daily news reports) it gives a really good understanding of who did what, and when. The sources are from Chinese news organizations, reporting on the incident as it happened. Bear in mind, these were recorded almost 20 years ago, so the reporting style is rather dry but nonetheless very informative. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz5c1eDU7G4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rxGYlaj3Y&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O10_L8UvhtY&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLkSCWNhkzw&feature=related If you want to see the rest of the vids (total of 20) use this search term: 八九民運六四事件 June4 Massacre in Beijing (4-6-1989) 香港電視新聞 ...and then look for volume 1. The first vol is rather boring as they start talking about the economic impact of the massacre.
Hong Kong remembers Tiananmen. See this other thread too, about the PRC government cutting access to Twitter, Hotmail, and Flickr, in preparation for the Tiananmen Anniversary. The CCP desperately wants to stop people from talking about, being told about, or seeing pictures about what really happened in Tiananmen. The bottom line is, if NOTHING happened, like some claim, then why the extraordinary steps to stop net communications? The CCP is only behaving like a guilty tyrant because that's exactly what it happens to be. And a good story about the seeds of doubt:
Finally. Such a nice break from all the bleak news coming from the US. This is a nice change. I wish there are more coverage of the violence that is going on now in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Pakistan. Ever wonder you don't ever see blood and death from those countries even though MILLIONS have died ?
This is just my opinion, but I feel like all countries limit all the bad press of themselves and not only in China. This kind of goes with why we never see much news about Iraq or Afghanistan is because of the involvement of the US. Tienanmen Square is probably the biggest one that stands out because of the continuous semi-denial by the PRC. Bits and pieces have been shared and readily available but I'm sure many of the "facts" have been left out. I have met many mainland students here in Macau that only knows or wants to know certain parts of the story. I am not sure why, but I personally think that it is because they are afraid to taint their views of their beloved country. Last night, I had a long argument with my roommate who is from a small province outside of Shanghai. He fought continuosly over and over again that tanks and riffles were never used in the Square against civilians. He just would not accept the fact that the PRC would treat their own people with such violence. After many hours of video clips and news articles I finally gave up and let him believe what he wanted to...
You're right, of course, that most citizens are hard pressed to ever say anything negative about their homeland or government, regardless of how bad. Just one look at your typical red neck American or Chinese nationalist would bear that out. Everyone wants to be called a 'good' guy, even if their hands are dripping with blood. Truth is, tanks and rifles were hardly used IN THE SQUARE against civilians. Most of the deaths came from military action to gain control of, and around the square. Like the author of the second article stated, there really wasn't a Tiananmen Square Student Massacre per se, it was more of a Massacre of Beijing citizens around the area of Tiananmen Square during the student protests. Most of the people that died weren't even students. So, it remains a technical misnomer, but a technicality that the PRC government uses to distract from what had happened and to drive a perception that the western press got it wrong. To this day however, despite the majority of the killings occurring outside of the square, most people will still refer to the event using the name "Tiananmen Square Massacre." Another article about remembering the protest:
So enlighten us. Tell us your full version of the account Was it a Pro democracy movement ? Was it a Anti Capitalistic Movement ? Or was it a military coup that failed to take shape ? Was there internal power struggle within the CCCP itself ? Denial is a very popular tool. Just like in the US, the lies are just blatant although it CLAIMS to be democratic in its political process. Wheres the WMD ? How many Iraqis are killed since the invasion ? Will the US publish a list of all the civilian victims that it have slaughtered in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan ? The golden rule applies. What you cannot do, don't expect others to comply. Try searching for the violent video of the deaths that have occurred in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Good luck. There is this very interesting term in the US which best describe this phenomenon. It is censorship no different from China. Why is it interesting ? Because censorship does not exist in any ideal democracy. Talk about denial
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8084072.stm Video of protest remembrance in Hong Kong, and a rather crude, comical but nonetheless effective denial of western press coverage at Tiananmen on the anniversary of the massacre: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8080437.stm
That's pretty much what I said. Denial is used all around the world in any and every media source so as to not put itself in a negative light. Also I never said that the US was any better in comparison to China. I have no particular opinion as to why the incident happen, I just noted that many still believe that not one single "innocent" life was lost at the hands of the PRC's decision to issue martial law. As to what "facts" are being left out just depends on those that are being suppressed by the government and does not have the ability to speak up. Of course this is only my opinions and it holds no water. Whether it be pro-democracy, anti-capitalist, anti-bourgeoisie or just freedom to express their views, I doubt we will ever truly understand the cause of all this.
The worst that we can do to the victims of oppression is to forget... The one thing that the PRC desperately wanted, is for the whole issue of what happened a generation ago, to simply fade into the past and go away. They have been censoring textbooks, muzzling voices, suppressing reporting, cutting off web access, et cetera. But, as this thread is going strong; by us, and I mean ALL of us, whether pro or con, constantly debating this (this thread has already over a thousand views), it's keeping the issue fresh and in people's minds more than ever. I've done what I've personally set out to do three months ago; that is, to remind people of this issue and to keep it alive in the run up to the 20th Tiananmen Anniversary. Regardless of whatever your individual views happen to be, I thank all that participated with their responses and in making this a much viewed thread.
Very fair comments And I am sure you are curious why did your room mate insist in living in denial ? Think about that for a while. Despite the fact that you have shown him all the videos you can get your hands on, there is no way in hell you can convince him. I suppose he is now out of China, and pretty well educated. He is not your regular brainwash peon from the farms. He have been exposed to the west with all its glory and wart. As for you, why is there is need to convince him ? Cheers !
Here's another brave Chinese soldier coming forward with the events of those horrific times. What is startling about this is, the revelation that PLA soldiers dressed in civilians clothes to infiltrate the square. It provides another sobering yet stark example at what the Chinese Communist Party is capable of: In a rush? For a quick synopsis, just read the red highlighted lines. Years after the Rape of Nanking, some of the Imperial Japanese Army participants who had been involved in the killings of innocent Chinese have come forward to not only confess their crimes, but to work tirelessly in an attempt to get the Japanese government to admit responsibility. They have been hounded, ostracized, and even threatened by fellow Japanese for their "betrayal" of Japan. Similarly, PLA soldiers who had been unwittingly used as the state's armed instrument to crush the protest must be equally torn. Not only did they kill other innocent human beings (which is tragic enough), but it was during a time of peace and those killed were their own countrymen; their own people. Such a weight on their conscience must be even greater than that of those former IJA troops. I applaud these former PLA soldiers who have thus come forward to speak out. More importantly, I sincerely thank them for their moral courage to stand for principles despite the great personal risk and emotional expense.
