This thread is perfect for the younger generation Chinese to educate themselves on these historical events. I am confident Chinese from around the global will benefit from this. If the Korean's want one to educate their own, I can assure you they are fully capable of starting one. dude you have repeatedly dodged my questions, even after I reminded you. Will you please answer them?? The reason why the proposals are rubber stamped at the congress is because the CCP is non democratic!! And if the CCP as a whole is not at fault (as you claim) and the fault lies with a few individual politicians then why do Chinese dissidents and western correspondents attack the CCP and not certain individuals?? The students were at Tiananmen Square for EIGHT WEEKS its not like the CCP sent the military to crush them the next day!! Now tell me has there been another instance in another country where students were allowed to occupy the capital city's central square for protests for eight weeks without taking any action?? Also martial law was declared before any action was taken against the students, so there was prior warning! and the students did have meetings and negotiated with the CCP unofficially. Also the students at Tiananmen were disorganised, they did not have a unified leadership, a common cause or voice, they were made up of all and sundry eg. disallusioned communists, other communist factions like trotskyists, anti-capitalists, pro-democrats, free market reformists etc (note: non of these groups necessarily agree with each others central aims or views, they were just united against a preceived common enemy) infact anyone who had a greviance against the CCP. Imagine if they had overthrown the govt what a mess the China will be in today!! You talk about fairness and addressing greviances, but many of the students and Chinese workers who took part in the protests were unhappy with the "capitalist" economic reforms implemented by Deng Xiao Ping a decade earlier in 1979, they said it created "inequalities" yet as we can see with hindsight, Deng's economic reforms is probably the single most important reason why China has a strong economy today and the Chinese people is enjoying greater prosperity!! Its also important to remember that when these students were demanding that CCP address the greviances and issues of the people, China at that time was a poor country in 1989, apart from the political issues, China did not have the resources to fully address many social issues eg. employment, inflation, poverty etc. It was like demanding a man with ten dollars in his pocket who fathered one hundred kids to get all the necessary things the kids needed!! LOL, dude, China is nothing like Zimbabwe, inflation isn't going through the roof and people aren't starving everywhere. Anyway why don't you tell me about India like I ask you to?? Here we have a country with a billion people and have been a democracy for over 60 years, so why does it still have massive problem with corruption?? Dude you know nothing about me, or how old I am, so cut the disparaging remark about my parents. You said the US admitted its mistake about the WMD and the Iraq war and they were "put to task for it" (your words). So why has NO ONE BEEN CHARGED FOR THE MISTAKE?? Why has no one in the US adminisration ever been prosecuted for it?? Wheres the accountability your talking about?? Remember thousands of innocent people lost their lives over the plunder of the Iraq war, YET NOT ONE PERSON FROM THE US GOVT WAS EVER PROSECUTED FOR IT, is that what you call accountability?? Since bush was illegally installed as president of the US (as you claimed) then why was there no remedial action to rectified it?? Why was there no offical enquiry into the matter?? I mean we're talking about a western democracy here not a communist country right? So wheres the transparency?? I like the way you totally dodged my questions lol, now try to answer them please!! Here they are again: 1) If the student protests in Tiananmen square in 1989 was successful would it had led to a smooth transition to democracy? or a tumultuous one?? 2) If China's economy becomes weak and theres no longer a co-dependence from the US and the west, would the west still care about the stability of China?? 3) Does the west regard China as a threat or not?? I've already told you, the students did not have the full support of all the people in China!! Now if you have evidence to show that the students had the full backing of everyone in China then please show it to me!! otherwise stop making references to that effect. As to the question of why CCP gave the order to quell the students protests? I can ask you a similar question of why did the US govt gave it's approval for the South Korean military to quell the student protests in Kwangju?? So are you saying as long as the corruption is disguised or hidden ie. "not in an open fashion" then it is acceptable?? And don't forget if you decide to vote out a "corrupt" politician, you need to make sure you replace him with a "clean" politician, else your back to square one, because even for many initially "clean politicians" especially in poor third world countries, the temptation of someone waving a wad load of cash whilst asking him to do "a little favor" will often prove irresistable!! So can you vote out a politician in China you asked?? the answer is no, China is a communist country!! Thats why it needs change and I am all for that change as long as it done in a smooth and responsible manner. Dude we've talked alot of about Tiananmen, lets talk a little about Kwangju (which is the topic of this thread). So let me turn your question around and ask you, why didn't the US govt support the Korean students in their fight for democracy at Kwangju?? Also why did the US govt gave it's approval for the South Korean military to brutally crush the students?? and if the US govt's actions at Kwangju were NO different than the CCP's actions at Tiananmen Square, then what moral authority has the US got to lecture China?? (a4agent, borrowing some of your quote.) You talk about moral courage, has the US govt got the moral courage to gave an apology for what happened at the Kwangju massacre?? and has the USA and UK govts got the moral courage to give an offical apology for the Iraq war?? And dude, I remind you again, you have repeatedly dodged my questions on the Kwangju massacre, so will you please answer them now?? And lets concentrate on the thread topic. thx Lastly, let me say, what happened at Tiananmen was wrong, and there should be an apology from the CCP, I think most reasonable Chinese will agree with me on this.
Dude.. take it easy. Why are you lecturing the mods here about how they should ran this forum ? Respect is mutual. You want your views to be heard, you could robustly defend your stance. If you haven't notice, scores of writers here have been asking you not to dodge their question which in all parts of a debate, it can only be natural if they have been vehement. If you have any respect for others, you should be focusing in conducting yourself with dignity and open up a discourse and not repeat empty rhetorical statement about how evil China is and openly insulting others who disagree with you as being blinded and brain washed. Action, reaction. What do you expect ? With love, Mobi
"Dude we've talked alot of about Tiananmen, lets talk a little about Kwangju (which is the topic of this thread)." Which, like I've stated repeatedly is OFF TOPIC in a China Forum. If you seriously want to discuss Kwangju, or any of the myriad of political things that happened in Korea, I would be more inclined to discuss them in the Korea forum.
This is not about lecturing me nor is he doing that. I've read all the bloody threads and noticed that a4agent has a habit of slurring insults when there is no need for it. Warnings have already been issued and if i get the faintest hint of it happening again, a BAN without question will follow. Either way, continue the discussion. Knoc
LOL, dude you're a joke, this thread's topic is about whether THE WEST IS CONCERNED ABOUT SELF-INTEREST THAN HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY understand?? Using Tianamen Square, Kwangju massacre and varies infomations( India's democracy, Zimbabwe etc) during debates to help draw a conclusion. The author of this thread chose the Chinese forum obviously want to hear the Chinese people's opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. Remember you POSTED to this thread and I responded, then you responded back to me, and things went off from there!! nobody forced you to participate!! Throughout this thread you have been avoiding my questions regarding India, Kwangju massacre etc. like the plaque! lol Now,If you're still up to continue with this debate please respond with my last post! I know when someone stops debating and starts whining, its time for me to move on. Next time dude, try to debate like an adult.
And dude just in case you thought I had deliberately avoided your questions on Tiananmen in your paragraph in your reply, let me tell you, if you had been astute enough to answer my questions on the Kwangju massacre, you would have got your answers about Tiananmen, because the two are RELATED!! Let me show you what I mean, you asked: Well heres the answer: Firstly the South Korean students in Kwangju wanted be heared (like the Chinese students at Tiananmen), but they were denied this because ultimately the US govt did not supported them, the US supported the South Korean dictatorship. Secondly, the US govt gave its approval for the South Korean military to quell the student protests to "preserve" South Korea. Just like the CCP send the military to quell the student protests at Tiananmen to "preserve" China. Now the question is WHY?? Well the answer is simple it is SELF INTERESTS!! The CCP decided to curb the student protests at Tiananmen because it believed that it was doing it not only in the party's interest but in the perceived self interest of China (the CCP thought the students were trying start a uprising which threatened national security). Just like the US govt decided to gave it's approval for the South Korean military to curb the student protests in Kwangju because it believe it was in the interest of it's foreign policy (the US govt also thought the Korean students were starting a uprising which threatened the national security of South Korea) and hence the perceived self interests of the United States!! understand?? Now tell me, can you honestly say one is better than the other morally? And lastly will the US have the "moral courage" to offically apologise for what happened at Kwangju??
To be honest, I think his points are relevant. He have said so clearly that he is drawing a comparison with US attitude between Tiananmen and Kwanju. How on earth is that not relevant ? I don't get your logic at all. I am disappointed that you have refuse to even address his points. Just because you ruled it off as invalid, does not answer the question. First thing first, I will agree with you the A4 needs to tone down his insults. But similarly your accusation of him that A4 is indulging in race-baiting, raising red herrings that he deliberately writes off anything that does not conform to his views are serious accusation too. You expect him to take it lying down ? Look bros. We all need to take a chill pill. We can agree to disagree and have fun. Which is why I have not been posting lately because gosh.. its way too serious. Its PA guys ! Not some political forum... We all might argue until the cow comes home, but it is my world view that politics in whatever form are inherently corrupted no matter what forms it takes. What keeps us sane are the relationship we form with one another... I said my part. Peace out
NO shit,,,,,,,of cause.. lol,,,Unfortunately some people here on this thread can only see things in black and white and need a thorough explanation!
There's a bit of both invovled, of course democracy sounds really good coz citizens are voting for people to help us round the countries but then without self-interest or selfishness we cdan't get to the type of society that we have
As pointed out already, every country is concerned about self interest than someone else's humans rights. I'd much prefer my leaders to focus on improving my own country than give handouts to or police another country.
Sure lar...America bad one and all HK people know lar. But they got big economy we not say much jeh. Let our country grow powerful first and we see.
Over 2 thousand students were beaten to death, run over to death by tanks or burned to death by flame throwers. The US govt supported the ruling dictatorship to the mass killing Yet, still no apology from the US govt...instead they are trying to sweep this incident under their hat. Please be warned, these videos contains gruesome footages. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIDKIc9powM&feature=related 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt2bKWuKj40&feature=related 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaI-LSZ1Prc&feature=related
I have never heard of this Kwangju massacre before until now. But since the question is asked, I am going to say it's mostly self-interest. There has never been a race of people so self centred that it aint funny. It's greed greed greed and more greed in all sectors of western society.
"Do you guys think the West(Especially the US) is more concerned about self interest than human rights and democracy?" To answer this thread's TITLE, excuse me, self-interest IS A HUMAN RIGHT. There is no perfect plan because ideals must stay ideals--the US's concerns about our self-interest but at the same time wishes to emphasize human rights on a global scale. Democracy cannot be inserted after human rights with an "and" because it is completely separate from consideration--the US's ultimate ideal is leading other countries to adopt democracy because no two democratic countries have yet fought.
That is correct, so this self interest is nothing more than to turn all these country into economic colonies or buffer states so that the west can exploit them. Also, Hitler was democratically elected, LOL
