I am sure we heard about the latest news on the age scandal with the China gymnastic team. The "West" are putting pressure on the IOC to investigate about the age issue. The US teams lost the Gold and is pissed about it. They whine and cry that things are not fair; that China is not played by the rules. I am an American and I do root for them; however, it's ashamed that the US Women Gymnastic team can't handle a defeat. What is so not "fair" about it? Everyone are out there competing against one another equally. Yes, age is a factor in participating the Olympic and China perhaps didn't play by the book a bit; but come on, they have won the Gold "FAIRLY". They put in just as much work as time as any gymnist out there. They didn't buy the judges for the scores. The worst thing is that if the age scandal is true, it will look pathetic for the US to take gold but known to be beaten by some under age kids. That's a true American disgrace home and abroad. Furthermore, there are so many negativities and challenges and problems instigated by westerners since the Olympic such Darfur and Tibet, if China was to stripped of their gold medal title in the Olympic, I am 100% sure that it will harm the relationship between the US and China down the road; no doubt about it. With the coming of power of China, I simply do not think it's wise for us to do that. Especially when we are heavily relying on China's cheap goods. What do ya'll think about the issue?? On a different note, I also wanna point out about the scandal of the Men Gymnastic team. Everyone knew about Paul Hamn's Gold medal in 2004 was a joke. He won it by scoring error; not by his true ability. The Gold should had gone to the Korean; not US. That's the reason why, Paul Hamn didn't participate in this year's Olympic; faking serious injuries. Cuz in no way does he has any luck on the Gold medal like most people think or hope. One would think that the coach would tell everyone to be extra, extra careful as the days drew closer to the competition; not training harder and harder; so much as to cause or exacerbate injuries. After all, athletes are trained and waited 4 years for the Olympic; not an everyday event. I can't fathom anyone would injured themselve unless it's done purposely. Of course, not to say that accident don't happened .. but both brothers .. hmm.. it's beyond coincidence to me. Anyway, Paul Hamn isn't an American hero but a loser. Agree??
Thanks for posting this, as it readily illustrates the general lack of understanding of how gymnastics and physics work. In fact, with gymnastics, there is a marked advantage for the smaller and younger athlete that has its basis in physics. So far from being embarrassed over being beat by "under aged kids" the US should be incensed that the PRC cheated by giving their team an unfair advantage by using under aged kids. US team whine? When? Please source any one of the US team members and their exact quote. I beg to differ because frankly I haven't been able to find one source of a US team member bringing this up. So the assessment of US team's "whining" is perhaps just a fabrication to smear the US team, in an attempt to divert attention from the issue? Most of the questions have been asked by the media, and NOT any particular sports figure. Former coaches in the US have argued that the US too, should be allowed to use younger contestants because nations like the PRC are openly flouting the rules. These rules were instituted by international gymnastics a few years ago as a protection against the punishing effects of the venue in participants too young to weather the physical damage. The IOC thus follows the same rules for any participants in such related events. The problem here is that the PRC wants the value of the gold medal, that is, to have others acknowledge that it got to where it did with hard work and sportsmanship excellence. However, even if the IOC chooses not to delve any further into it and allow the PRC to walk away with the gold, it will always be associated with the taint of something not fairly gained. That is, the value of the gold medal is no longer worth what China wanted in the first place. This is in line with your assessment of Hamm's medal, that is, something unfairly gained no longer has the same value that it did before. China walked away with the gold but people are snickering and shaking their heads behind its back. And your comment of self mutilation to avoid an event can be easily applied to the Chinese hurdler, who courageously went down to the wire, but quit simply because he wasn't 100%. He did so even though all Chinese looked to him to win the gold (which in pre event trials he had already run in record times). Shall we call him a faker too? Please. Your political and sports views are like oil and water; that is, they're easily separated and you really shouldn't try to mix them. Hamm's gold was one event that cannot ever be recreated, that is, we cannot re-run the same race as both he and the Korean are different people today. Your suppositions about his motivations are just that, your suppositions, and they do seem to be heavily biased by your politics. And speaking of which, politically, China is essentially showing the world that the only way it can compete is to cheat. I'm Chinese and I find this the height of embarrassment. The Chinese, as a people, are a lot better than the PRC government gives us credit for. As I've said in another thread, its far better to lose well than to win poorly. The US, in this case, lost well. And the PRC, though winning, did so very poorly. Or lets' put it this way; if Michael Phelps is later shown to have doped in order to get his wins, would the US people feel good about his wins? I doubt it. Most Americans would move to strip him of any medals and he would be dropped from the sport for having embarrassed his nation. China should win, but not if it means having a Sword of Damocles forever hanging over its head. Suppose He Kexin, Yang Yilin and Jiang Yuyuan (the gymnast in question) later admit that they really were underaged (like Yang Yun, who won in Sydney, 2000)? What would this do to Chinese sports, or to Chinese credibility? Winning is great, but do it in such a way that it brings honor to the Chinese. Winning by any means, whose method render a victory open it to dismissive derision is not really winning; it is a perverse mockery that undermines the dignity of Chinese everywhere. Ralph
^ you read too much ralph, but imma just put this, i agree w/ everything you both just wrote, i think what the op was talking about is that the US as a whole, is whining, don't think he mentioned any actual athelete whining and that i don't think that "phelps found doping later on" is the same as "chinese underaged" the argument will be that they still won fair and square, sure a bit of an age difference, but physically, talented, and dedication were all there for the chinese underaged women and it doesn't deserve such a dark cloud over.
Thank you Uryu, but your "still won fair and square" is what I have a problem with. I used Phelps suspect doping as an illustration of using some other means generally not available to the contestant to give him or her an unfair advantage over everyone else. :Talktohand: Personally I suspect that Phelps may have banked his own blood and then transfused it back into himself (autotransfusion) a week or so before the event, giving him extra oxygen carrying capacity. Unlike Erythropoietin (EPO, which chemically induces the body to produce more red blood cells) this is almost impossible to detect. Persistent training in high altitude will also produce greater RBC numbers but not nearly to the degree that autotransfusion will achieve. Why do this? Because the exercise equation's entire physiologic bottleneck is O2 carrying capacity. There's been a lot of talk about how much he eats and his fuel reserves, et cetera, but none of this really matters as much as how fast his body can burn that fuel, a process that requires oxygen. An example of this is when you're doing something physical and you start breathing hard and your heart beats faster, it isn't because you're running out of fuel, but rather, you're using up the oxygen faster than you can resupply to your body. Your body responds by making you breath and beat faster but there's a finite limit as to how much oxygen you can move with each breath and beat of the heart. But imagine now, if each beat of the heart can carry an extra few percentage points of oxygen? Would that be an unfair advantage? Of course; it gives the contestant a much more efficient O2 delivery system to the muscles, which, when constantly supplied with higher levels of oxygen, can run faster and harder than before. That's why they ban it. -detect Similarly, in gymnastics, points are awarded toward the performance of certain maneuvers that require movements like spins and somersaults. It is already a known fact that smaller bodies require less enegy to spin faster than larger bodies. This is because there is less mass to move as well as less distance. If say, a contestant was exposed to a "Shrink Ray" that miniturized their stature and weight by 10-15 percent, would that give them an unfair advantage over others in this venue who weren't given the same benefit? Of course. But since there isn't any Shrink Ray, the next best thing is to use smaller contestants, and they only come that way by being younger. This has been already accepted by the venue as true, that is, by being younger, it holds an advantage for the sport. There is now a rule that prevents the use of younger players because it hurts the bodies of those players. But, if a country decides to defy the rules and keep their younger contestants, this would allow them to keep the advantage over other nations that do follow the new rules. Hence, it would be an unfair advantage. :nono: Or let's put it this way, suppose there was no age rule and the PRC's contestants are acknowledged to be 12 through 14 years old and they can perform at a certain level. When they reach the age of 16 or 17, as their bodies get heavier and larger, the same routines that they used to do with ease becomes much harder and more difficult. Both cases would hardly be the "fair and square" that you described. -down Ralph
Well, Ralph .. thank you for your response. I am not gonna go into those scientific stuffs too much like you do. Basically, I agree with you that younger age do have an advantage in the gymnastic sport since they do "believe" to have better agility and flexibility. No doubt about it and I have thought about it before making the post. However, keep in mind that these are allegation against the Chinese (regardless of IOC's decision whether to deal with them or not); hence, you can't jump to conclusion saying that the Chinese cheated in the competition. In addition, I think you should also consider the fact that "Azn" in general have a "smaller" frame and do look "younger" than their American competitors. You can't generalize scientific studies on everyone's body; of course, not relevant to the physics behind the sport itself. Whining; yes, one athlete spoke out and that's Shawn Johnson on NBC's interview. I saw it on television but I can't find it on youtube to show you the clip. Basically, she said that China didn't play it fair by allowing underage athletes to compete; breaking the rule and stole their "gold" medal away. My point is that since the US didn't get the Gold, the age issue is suddenly blown up and out of proportion. I wouldn't believe a single things in the media until the IOC proved it's the case. You're innocent until proven guilty; but already, fingers are pointing at the Chinese cheating and this and that. Now, that's pathetic. About Paul Hamn's case, I stand by my comment. I knew someone would make that comparison with the Chinese hurdler when I made the post. The reality is that I know the Chinese hurdler didn't lie because if you know about Communist Chinese gov enough; that they spent a lot of money into these athletes; to fake an injuries would not be forgiven easily. I remember one Chinese Olympian who lost a table tennis Gold to the Korean some years ago went home and hung himself. That's how serious the Chinese athletes are ... to me .. that's like absolutely and totally CRAZY. Life is too precious .. anyhow ... off topic there. Politically, I think the US will only increase friction with China with this scandal. After all, it's the westerners who instigated this entire thing. I get a feeling that many ppl have tried to pull anything they can to smear China during this Olympic ranging from the mask incident to the slanted eyes photos. Well, overall, I don't think the Chinese have done poorly or cheated in anyway. They played a very competitive games this year. Everything is GREAT. I am still surprised by their accomplishments and the opening .. WOW .. look forward to the closing.
so what if some ppl whine... not only the US do that .. soo many other ppl do too... (im anti-US anyway... lol) but the fact that to go dodgy stuff, hide the facts... etc... (hasn't been proven... but we can all assume its true...) is worse than whining... if u think in the overall spirit of everything, yes every1s done wrong here n there... but if u look at all the stuff thats gone on just on this games... wat more has to be said? in the "best interest" of the nation to not let a lil kid perform cos she looks fugly? wtf is that... and saying the "westerners"... its like chinese vs the rest of the world... wat makes u think everything revolves around one area...
oh well American are just bull shitting again in my opinion... Chinese do look younger than their actual age anyway.
Actually, the reason why younger female athletes can do better in gymnastic is not because of "less energy to spin faster than larger bodies." It's because the female body grows at a rate much faster than their strength can handle from a gymnastic POV. It's one of the main reason why the men can compete at a high rate in gymnastic when they are an adult because men can get much, much stronger as they grow older, and can sustain to a certain point (somewhere around 30+ years of age). Flexibility, as mentioned, also plays a big role for Anyway, the age limit rule is dumb. While I understand that it is put into place because gymnastic can damage a young girl, but it doesn't prevent children from training for the Olympic at a very young age. Unless the IOC can obtain proofs (passport, birth certificate) those girls are underage, it's unlikely those girls will lose the 2 golds. Their golds might be tarnished in history, but so is Hamm's. BTW, the age limit rule came into effect in this year's Olympic, so I don't get why someone mention a gymnast back in 2000 Sydney? No like-ke? Hate?
The larger an object is, the more distance it needs to cover in order to complete a revolution. The age rule (regardless of your supposition of motivation, "No like-ke? Hate?") came into effect as of 1997. Your comment of "...so is Hamm's" really reveals the tit for tat motivation of your comments; of China versus US as the impetus. Many other former US contestants were thrown out for doping, etc. None of which has anything to do with China or this discussion of age cheating. Hamm's issue was a scoring irregularity. Again, it has nothing to do with the issue of age scandal or age falsification with intent to defraud. I know that many Chinese see this, or want to couch this as a US versus China debate; it isn't. Its about adhering to rules or not. Ralph
how i seee it is that the americans should have warned the IOC earlier in advance instead of allowing the competition to end because it proves that they are jealous and can't face that the Chinese is a stronger team. However i also think that "if it is true" that the Chinese athletes are underaged they should be ashamed of themselves because they ARE the host and a RULE is a RULE even if you do not like it.... this whole competition thing is going to lead to a WWIII one day
Dude, didn't China get caught cheating in the beggining and had three gymnasts DQed? I think the IOCs suspicion has some validity especially considering the girls passport, I believe, states that she's about 14. And I have to say, that girl looks young even by asian standards and everyone I was watching the comp with made comments about that specific girl in question being like 12 years old or so.. And what's with Nastia losing the gold to the Chinese girl in question when Nastia and the girl in question tied in the comp? I don't get it.. Oh, and lets not forget that the Chinese girl looks like she's still losing her baby teeth which, by the way, is one of the reasons why the IOC decided to investigate.
Revolution? Huh? Everything takes strength to accomplish, including revolution. It's not just about mass, it's the mass:strength ratio at play. Women dominates at a younger age; Men dominates at an older age. US athletes were thrown out because there are PROOFs (BALCO incident) that they are doping. And there were some that got away even though proofs were found 20 years later. (i.e. Carl Lewis, Joe DeLoach, Floyd Heard, etc). Unless there are definitive proofs that those girls are underage instead of some assumptive BS, they can't take away their golds. And Hamm should have given up his gold because he definitely does not deserve it. A tainted gold is a tainted gold. (Biggest reason why they change the scoring system) Just Chinese? I know that many Americans want it to be a US vs China debate. Just look at all those US major media outlets focusing on how China "is a bad place to be" and talk more about political BS than about the Olympic itself (except their beloved son, Phelps). Also go take a look at forums around the web.
I agreed w/ Manicfreak that the media (especially the Western) is pretty much pointing finger at China for cheating when there aren't enough proof behind those allegations. They also keep saying China is "BAD" this or that even before the Olympic started. I certainly didn't see the purpose in that. Media should inform; not scaring ppl away from the Olympic. Hamn should have given up his GOLD medal. As for the US being fair about their medals; again agree w/ Manicfreak on that too. If it wasn't for the BALCO case, the Marion Jones, Antonio Pettigrew, etc would've gotten away with it. On a different note, I am surprised that Barry Bond was inducted into the hall of fame without further investigation of the drug allegations against him.
oh well American are just bull shitting again in my opinion... Chinese do look younger than their actual age anyway.
American's as a nation feel like they should be superior to others to begin with so its not very surprising that protest have been filed or the media has commented on it.... on a side note if anyone was watching the diving portion on MSNBC or NBC the woman commentator was rather bias to all other nations especially china in her comments despite the score outcome.... it was quite hilarious to hear...
That's because little kids have the physical advantage over adults in this sport. I know what you're trying to insinuate, is that a "bunch of grown up lost to kids." Well, in this case, its only true because the kids had the natural advantage. Hence, by using kids when they weren't supposed to, China was cheating. Many coaches in the US said that the US should have been allowed to use kids also; then China wouldn't have had a such an easy time of it. Many people who respond to this thread still misunderstand the age scandal issue. By citing the 14 year old British diver, you're hinting that he too, was "underaged" and should not have competed. The problem here is that you may not have appreciated that certain Olympic sport venues have specific age requirements; in gymnastics, the age is 16 while in diving the age is 14. Other sporting venues, for example like boxing is 19, Equestrians need to be 18 (with exceptions), and fencing is 13. So in essence, Daley was fully eligible to participate in his diving sport. Had he applied for Gymnastics events instead, he would not have been allowed. Conversely, if the Chinese gymnasts had participated in the diving events instead, we wouldn't even be having this conversation as their age would have then been a non issue. But, that wasn't the case, they were competing in gymnastics. Hence, if they were using ineligible players (ie underaged participants), the PRC in effect, was cheating. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/7197205.stm Ralph
People need to stop investigating or these scandals will never end lol when it comes to gymnastics, china can not be beaten, other countries train their practitioners whereas in china they live it LITERALLY, weather its very humane or not is another matter.
but theres no way anyone can prove that they are not 16 the document papers are issued by the chinese government
