I have read numerous thoughts posted by you folks and actually find it an eye sore because I could not sort thoughts, nor follow as much. Granted, you folks probably have a prejudice/opinion about certain things already. The biggest issue is "Free Will". I am not religious, but like typical Asians that have the analytical thoughts, I ponder about religion a lot !
heeeyyy no one talked about free will to Expresso unless s/he found the thread..???? ahhhh let's just continue on this one only cos.. cos cos... i just replied to some thread on some student's forum HAHA *copy and paste* SOOO FREE WILL... Questions about why God allows suffering, good, bad, etc… well God allows free will for one.. He lets us have choice of what we want to do in our lives. Yet ok, He knows what decide before we even choose it. But if He didn’t give free will, love is not really possible and we would not understand what unconditional perfect love is from God. Now if God let each one of us have what we wanted.. THAT would be chaos! haha… Like people may question.. where is the evidence…where is the theory… well.. sometimes I think.. isn’t there enough evidence already from the people who believe in God or a God? “As of 2005 (most recent data), approximately 88 percent of the world’s population were said to “believe in God” (Cambridge University).” Why would a Christian decide to devote his/her life to God and try to follow the Bible with all the rules that are set in it. It’ not easy…I’ve spoken to a lot of people, and they are afraid that if they accept God, they are scared of being under all these rules and “no freedom”.. so why are there so many Christians and Muslims and other faiths out there… why are people still following all this?? Because they all believe in God. You may say, “oh they were born into such a religion”.. well to be honest, a lot of people become Christians at all sorts of ages. 15, 18, 30, 50 etc… for myself, i’m a Christian and I believe and know in my heart that God is real. I ask for evidence from Him, and He gives the evidence. He gives me answers of what I question. And I admit, even the spiritual side of things I see in church can be quite scary… but looking at the world as a whole is already one of the things that shows me that God is so real. There will always be questions unanswered about God “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 55:8
I'd like to ask.. Why is it that we are so concerned with trying to find/prove/disprove whether or not God exists? Does it really matter? Don't get me wrong, I'm deeply religious and spiritual, HOWEVER I don't think the definition of Religion is to discover God. Is God nothing but a hidden treasure, that everyone seeks to discover? I mean, think about it. Some of us strive to find God, for whatever reason, but what's the purpose behind that? How does finding God help you in any way, your way of life, your behavior, your compassion, as a human being? If you ask me, people who seek God develop a sense of stubbornness, hard-headed nature. God gave us the tools we need to shape ourselves into a better individual. The lessons have been taught, written down for us. What we should be doing, is not find God, but using and applying the lessons that were taught to us, and become a better individual. The important thing here, is not God, but rather, his lessons. In Buddhism, Buddhists focus on the teachings of Buddha, we use Buddha's teachings to better ourselves. There is rarely a case where people try and seek out Buddha (aside from extremist Buddhist groups). Buddhists do revere Buddha, they do acknowledge Buddha, but this is not the primary focus of Buddhism. The primary focus of Buddhism is to apply the teachings taught by Buddha, whether or not he has existed or not, to better ourselves. I find that the search for God, Alah, Buddha, or any other divine being is futile, and fruitless. This futile search has been the cause of conflicts and war. Instead of arguing the existence of a Godly being, try and learn and apply the moral lessons that were passed down to us. As a Buddhist, I also find myself learning proper moral lessons in other religions, aside from Buddhism, including Christianity, Muslim, Hinduism etc. This applies to everyone, whether you are of any religion, atheistic, agnostic etc. It doesn't matter if there is a divine being or not. If you want to become a better person, learn the moral lessons that were taught by these religions. You are only confined to one religion if you are closed-minded, God oriented, and refuse to learn the good teachings of other religions. Searching for God does not mean you are religious and/or spiritual. You can be religious/spiritual in other ways (but that's another topic). Without an open-mind to other religions, and letting go of trying to prove/disprove God, you will not be able to better yourself as an individual.
I don't think anyone will disagree with you on the point of living a morally upright life. The question I have is in Buddhism - is leading a moral life (the middle path) the objective or is it the means to an end i.e. enlightenment?
What do you mean, when you are deeply religious and spiritual? Is not that seeking a being for alleviation and salvation? Do people understand? Being religious is basically giving up free-will and using religion as a guidance. Of course there are extremes, but inside and out, this is what it means. I think you are inter-mixing rationale, moral judgment and religion. I'm sure you have heard of the 'crusaders' or 'jihad' etc. Does that mean any belief is better than the other? Of course not. Does the teachings of religions coincide or differentiate from moral judgment? Yes they do.
That depends per individual you ask. To me, my priority is set on leading a moral life, not enlightenment. I don't see the point in reaching enlightenment. How is being enlightened going to make you a better person? Once you've succeeded in leading a moral life, then you can focus on the secondary objective of enlightenment. Example: the Dalai Lama. He supposedly has reincarnated 15 times. He has had 15 lives to learn how to be a better person, live a moral life. Only now is he turning towards the study of enlightenment. Definition of religion: source: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/religion I don't see any mention of "seeking a being for alleviation and salvation". Do you? I also don't see any mention of "giving up free-will and using religion as a guidance". Do you? I do wonder where you get your definition of religion I never said they did. I said that one person should be open minded, and accept the GOOD teachings of all religions, and apply them to become a better person. I never said they were similar in the first place. Moral judgement is REQUIRED to determine whether or not a specific teaching is a good one (which is called free-will BTW), and that you can apply it to better yourself. Anyways, there's obviously a misunderstanding here. You seem to have your mind set on thinking that I am guided by religious teachings, and I don't have free-will to decide my own future, because I am guided by a set of teachings. Let me put it to you in a simpler way. You go to school for what? To learn basic skills needed to succeed in your adult life. If you claim that the educational system's teachings is guiding me, you are correct. It guides me to make educated decisions in my adult life. But how does it make me give up free-will? Religious and spiritual teachings guide me to become a better person in my adult life, similar to the educational system guiding me. In fact, they are the exact samething, only the educational system focuses on making you a more educated individual, regarding decision making, and the religious/spiritual system focuses on making you a morally better person. I still fail to see how I lose my free-will. I decide whether or not a teaching is worth learning or applying or not, and that's called free-will. I still don't see where this comes in My question to you: If I can choose to have an open-mind, learn religious teachings from different religions and choose whether or not I should apply those teachings, have I lost my free-will? Is there any sign of me stating that Buddhism is better than any other religions in my posts? Have I demonstrated any signs of wanting a conflict, and revering a higher divine being, and saying that my divine being is better than yours/others?
In order to address the issue of freewill one needs to define its meaning so that we discuss it within its proper context which in your case is within a religious backdrop. I will use the definition that Anselm a 16th century philosopher defines it as "Free will freedom is the power to preserve rectitude of will for its own sake". This is best understood on how this is meant to apply in the the exercise of freewill. All of the following conditions must be met : (1) There is a freedom to choose (2) The aim is to will what we ought to will. This will involve conflict resolution (3) The exercise of freedom is not morally neutral The intention of the definition is to narrow down its application rather than to have the widest application in meaning. For example, when you go to work you may have the freedom to choose the mode of transport between a bus, train, car or to cycle. In the context of this definition since the choice is normally not a moral one but what is practical and so condition (3) is not met. When dealing with the issue of free will the assumption is that a rational individual is either motivated by (a) a sense of justice (morality); or (b) a sense of what delivers an advantage (happiness). If we take the example on a decision of whether to download movies. The conflict resolution is between what is moral (and maybe legal) versus what brings happiness. If your view is that downloading movies is not immoral (aside from whether is illegal), then the exercise of freewill is not in play because you are morally neutral on this. In contrast if your religious system considers this to be immoral then freewill comes into play. In either case freewill is not lost. A religious system just brings the issue of morality into focus. It is always there - it is just a question of whether the existense of the issue is acknowledged or not. This has application right through issues like extramarital sex, abortion, homosexuality, et al. If you don't regard these as immoral, then freewill is not involved - it is just a lifestyle preference. This doesn't mean the morality issues are not present - it is just not acknowledged.
in that context of free-will, you are correct. however, free-will, determinism, and other philosophical concepts are very complex (perhaps even unprovable), and i have discussed multiple times in other threads, and i am tired of retyping an essay for a 5th time.... i will back away from this topic...
Kik it Kev, "I got on the bus with my daysavaar, *m*k*n *ee*** in the car-nar, laying low playing grand theft auto."
DAN, You seem uncertain of yourself and your own beliefs. After re-reading your posts, you are afraid of coming out and saying what you believe in. Instead, your approach is to pick up things from diff't teachings/religions as you seem 'fit' through rationale and moral judgment and call them your own 'free-will'. Maybe you are not religious to begin with. Maybe your one of those that think that by going to church or going through the motions, you are religious? Just saying.. There are some things that rationale, moral judgment & cultural influence can teach us; and it sometimes coincides w/ religion. Why? Because religion is created from the human mind. The beliefs, teachings, and intentions will work as a cycle. That is why you see very similar traits between diff't religions. Do you really need to read about the good samartin parable to teach someone that helping out brings goodness? Religion is nothing more than an alleviation for those in despair. When people pray for the rain, chant to ward evil spirits, they have succumbed themselves a bit to 'religion'. To simplify, let's use abortion as a topic. The bible's POV is obviously diff't from the rationale free-will mind. Those that are believers of the bible, obviously have abandoned their free-will. They simply are hard lined w/ their views. To them, abortion is completely wrong- regardless !! There are those that wiggle in between, maybe like yourself, that feel like abortion is dependent on its situation. Do you see now? For someone who has devoted himself ENTIRELY to religion, he has given up his -free-will-. Does that person even contemplate on whether abortion is justifiable or not? Someone who has free-will, uses his rationale and weighs consequences away from any 'sect' or 'religion'. The moment you use 'religion' to justify, or 'rationalize' is the moment you have given up your free-will. Maybe you can clarify your own beliefs and give more concrete examples. Why are you using WIKIPEDIA as a definition? Think about it. I am glad to discuss all you want about this. Is 'praying' not an abandonment of one's free-will? Does one pray at the crap's table, giving 'hope' into 'God' or a 'supreme being' that his fate will be decided in his favor? Does one not pray as a give up of his own rationale because he has lost all control of the situation at hand? I would think so. I agree w/ what you have said about human psychology. For me? I went to a Roman Catholic school and I grew up in that environment, but I did not believe in it whole-heartedly. I use rationale more than anything else because that is what human beings have over other animals. But it is conflicting because rationale and religion CANNOT CO-EXIST ! Therefore, I questioned a lot of what I've read in the Bible. I was always captivated about the masses believing in everlasting life, and what not. The whole Holy Grail, 2nd Coming got me more curious as a great story than anything. Imagine, seeing the Four Horsemen !! lol From then on, I started to read and watched documentaries about religion. I took UNIVERSITY classes on it as well (no, I didn't major in it). But it was a genuine -free-will- and desire to look into. This wasn't just on Christian Theology, but on other religions as well, like Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. Books/Movies like the Da Vinci code captivate me, only because of the interest and speculative possibilities about Jesus and Mary actually having an affair and bloodline. How can people dismiss that possibility, if it were true? A free-will mind would allow such, but not hard pressed Roman Catholic teachings. They would 'shun' it w/o any form of consideration. You know what abandonment of free-will is for me? When I buy lottery, I do pray, and I do lose my rationale. I hope and pray that I can win! I have no control over it because I have placed my feelings up in the air. Religious people call this 'faith'. But I wouldn't call this religious though. I do practice traditional customs and respect my culture. So I burn incense, wear red on New Years, etc. Religion is part of culture and so the beliefs are inter-mixed sometimes. But still, I wouldn't call myself religious because I do not abandon my thoughts. I don't go 'hoping' God will take care of things, or believing the boat will straighten itself as it reaches the harbor. Do you see the similarities there? I don't think you'll read this, but for someone that does have the time and genuine effort, I hope it has cleared some things up. FYI Misa Campo is nothing, she's ugly and a ditz.
after ang's warnings, i have decided to remove (or rather hide for post count under 3000) my post. [HIDE=3000] lol are you a fortune teller or something? who are you to tell me what i believe in? i barely read the first two lines you wrote and i'm getting sick of your verbal diarrhea you can take that bullshit of yours and shove it up your ass. i'm not going to discuss my beliefs with someone as close-minded, as ignorant such as yourself. if you wonder why there's wars and conflicts in the world, it's cause people like you, claiming to know it all, and telling others what they should or shot not believe in. you seem like you know what free-will is, and what religion is. are you God? you must be. you know just too much about this. i'm sorry, o great one. I seem uncertain of my own beliefs? what ever you say, God. and lol @ having to insult my avatar. you're a lowly faggot. do you see me insulting yours? [/HIDE]
[HIDE=5000]That's why i didn't bother waste my time taking him seriously in this thread or the other freewill thread I also have a very sore throat, and im tired >.<[/HIDE]
wow. religion is suppose to bring peace...but this thread certainly went down hill... anyways, just to add some fun to the Christianity thread... Jesus does not have a good memory even if he is the Triune God. Jesus cannot do simple mathematics. Jesus has no sense in finance or economics. now don't get mad from seeing this, just look at the hidden text. [HIDE=1]Jesus Has no Memory "During his agony on the cross, when the thief asked him to remember him when he arrived in his Kingdom, had it been me I would have replied: 'I will not forget you, but you must expiate your crimes in Purgatory.' However, Jesus replied: 'Today you shall be with me in Paradise.' He had forgotten that man's sins. The same happened with Mary Magdalene, and with the Prodigal Son. Jesus does not have a memory, he forgives the whole world," the Archbishop said. Jesus Is Ignorant of Mathematics and Philosophy "Jesus does not know mathematics. This is demonstrated in the parable of the Good Shepherd. He had 100 sheep, one is lost and without hesitating he went to look for it, leaving the other 99 in the sheepfold. For Jesus, one is as valuable as 99, or even more so," commented the Archbishop. "Moreover, Jesus is not a good philosopher. A woman with 10 drachmas, lost one and lit a candle to find it. When she finds it she calls her neighbors and says: 'Rejoice with me, because I found the drachma I had lost.' Is it logical to bother one's friends over just one drachma and then organize a party for having found it?" he mused. "Moreover, when inviting her friends to the feast, she spent more money than the value of the drachma. So it is that Jesus explains the rejoicing of God over the conversion of just one sinner." Jesus Is a Risk-taker with no Idea of Economics "Jesus is risk-taker. Those who want to win people's approval do so with many promises, while Jesus promises his followers prosecutions and persecutions and yet, for 2000 years we see that there are risk-takers who continue to follow Jesus," explained Archbishop Nguyễn Văn Thuận. "Jesus has no idea of finance or economics," he continued. "In the parable of the vineyard laborers, the master pays the same salary to the one who works from the early hours of the morning, and to the one who begins work late. Did he make a mistake in rendering these accounts? Did he commit an error? No, he does it on purpose, because Jesus does not love us for our merits, his love is free and surpasses us infinitely. Jesus has 'defects' because he loves. Real love does not reason, or calculate; it places no barriers or conditions, it does not build frontiers, and does not remember offenses." [/HIDE]
