Okay, let me see if I got this right. The discrepency between scriptures is due to artificial changes of some "facts" (of God's existence etc)? Then if it is assumed that there are manmade changes to the "fact" when it is recorded (as scriptures), how can you differentiate that it is based on fact plus a bit of fiction/opinion instead of pure fiction? The way I see it, yes, of course it is a feel-good thing, "feeling superior" based on scriptures which are at least partially untrue (or fictional)... And I account the "similarities" to the bottom lines of human beings: a promise of afterlife (or some reincarnation), reward for good deeds (be it in this life or the next), punishment for evil (be it in this life or the next). If you take out these three elements, the so-called similaries disappears. So then, are those three elements facts or universal fiction (wishes of people in general)? How can you tell one from the other? Yes, not adhering to preachings has nothing to do with God, given that they are not "representatives" or Ex Officio of God/religion such as the Pope. When the individuals who are supposingly representing the will of God make similar (if not same) mistakes repeatedly, it is natural to question if such mistake is a manifestation of the religion or really an individual choice (and thus human mistake independent of God) I remain skeptical of such hypocrisy which is representative of religion at the moment (and in various times throughout history). And my bottom line is, I don't deny the possibility of a God, just having problem with organized religion and their definition (and representation) of such God... Of course I cannot be certain that God exist (or otherwise), but I sure as hell that few, if not none, of the religion is doing a very good job in representing it, him, or whatever. PS> If anyone have the chance to follow some of my other religion posts, it is clear that I DO believe there is higher power, while I doubt that such higher power take humanoid form, is benevolent of humans, or created man (and woman alike)... but something beyond us exist even if it may not have done anything related to our birth and death.
^because i'm not very good at explaining, i'm not gonna attempt to try to explain in detail what i think because i don't want to give you the wrong impression of anything. i know for sure that God is the only god in this universe, and no other. i suppose when people try to find the "one true religion", it never works out because there are so many views of "higher beings" to different people. but like i said before, i don't view my beliefs as a religion because God is about relationships, and believing in God is a simple relationship between you and God as Lord and Savior of your life but not to say that belief in God dismisses the Bible.. [these are my personal views here-->] belief in God is a relationship and the Bible are God's words. the Bible helps me to differentiate between right and wrong and provides reason for me to be on this earth, gives me a purpose as well. about the discrepencies between scriptures.. i suppose it is subjective but i read/use the Bible, NIV to be exact. even within the category of "Bible", there's so many different kinds such as the Mormon Bible, Catholic Bible, etc. each boasting perhaps some differences in doctrine. in the same way that there are different Bibles and doctrines, each person will have a different perception of God as they see God. and no one can ever prove anything in this area because your personal view of God is subjective [or objective? (sorry if i'm using this word wrongly here)] to you. and so it is also your own free will to believe in what you will. i can only go as far as sharing my beliefs with you and can't force you to believe in what i believe in unless i suppose you see something in my beliefs that you want also. i hope you know what i mean? as for the hypocrisy going on with "religions not doing a very good job in representing him", again, it's the person. i don't know if someone has genuinely accepted God in his/her life as his/her personal Savior and so i can't tell if he/she wants to genuinely make an effort to stop/start doing whatever. and you can't expect people to be perfect just because we believe in God. we're all just human. perhaps God can help us realize we need to change how we live our lives, but cannot make us do anything because He gave us free will. what do you exactly expect from "religious" people? sorry if i'm coming off as racist (i hope i'm not), but in that same way, there are numerous people of the same characteristics that tie them to a particular race who represent their race in positive and negative ways. perhaps they don't mean for their actions to be connected to lineage, but that's how people will always conceive actions/words - as something that has to do with or results from race, religion, gender, etc. when in actuality, everything one does/says is really a show of that individual's character, no? everything else may play a part in influencing a person, but what they do/how they act is up to that person, no on else. how do i know i'm holding on to the truth? simple, through my relationship with God. through prayer; talking with God. notice the with; it's not to because God answers back.
^ i concur. @ Hiake, the 3 themes that you talked about regarding the discrepansies are the same. The discrepansies that i was referring to are more headed towards the historical events that happened and how ppl interpreted to them. As to the misuse of religion, there was never a doubt since men in nature are corrupt (dont get me wrong, im not excusing them for their actions). When power and wealth are within their grasp, they eventually forget about God's preachings. Some might say that they are christians and so on, but do they wholeheartedly believe in the doctrine? -^_^
@chickenutbread: Your argument is imepeccable, however, my main concern is still "how do you know the Bible (whichever version it is) is representative of God's words?" The differences in "telling of events" among them, which one represent a narration closest to the fact (assuming there's a God and Bible is some form of collection of God's words)? So one cannot be certain that the scripture studied represent the whole fact of God's words, how can one differentiate between the so-called authetic God's words and the fictional made-up by the author of the scripture? Bottom line, how can one be certain the God took human form and make himself relevant to human lives? It can be measures taken to make sure followers "feel" their God easily, because if he takes human form, he must have human-like feelings. And the rest of the story goes not unsimilar to the Roman or Greek mythical Gods. Really, I doubt that people will be so easily taken by religion if the God in question take the form of a wooden stool. I have repeated many times throughout this thread, I am not atheist (more towards agnoist), I am just against organized religion. While I am quite certain that there is a higher ruling, my doubt resides in the imagery religions take to such higher ruling.
The last post will be too long if I put the 2 together so here is the second half: @Wind: The thing is that yes, human make mistakes, but when I say an Ex Officio of God or some representative of God, I am not talking about a follower, but the so-called "spiriter leader". Somehow they all manage to drive religion as one of the most intolerating organization in the history of mankind (pretty close to race in that matter). When one is in such authority and supposedly only obtaining the authority after much study and understanding of the scripture, I cannot help but be skeptical where exactly is the problem in the turning the preachings into action/lifestyle, and its failure in so many. I know there are amazing people who are religion, but so there are amazing people among atheists and agnoists. My conclusion from such is that faith does not better people and it is delusional to think so. As I have said before, I have higher expectations to a person with faith because they aspire to higher things, when they fail, not only did they failed themselves, but they also failed their God, whoever they believed in. And when such failing is so commonplace, it is impossible but to question the faith itself. Also, the witch hunts and blasphemy are in fact "by the name of God"... It has occurred because people who wholeheartenly believed in the doctrine bore the swords of righteousness and decided to rid the world of evil via acts of inhumanity. Now I would call that ironic.
@ hiake I totally agree and understand what you meant. When people who say they have a "religious" background and yet do things that they ought not to do, its not the best example. God's words never meant for people to kill people. Crusaders and witch hunters or any other deviations from the people are purely extremists who manipulate God's doctrine. In the Bible, Quoran or Judaism doctrine, never did it ever mention one to terminate those who dont believe. God's commandment is to love thy neighbors as thyself. But on a side note, try to attend a Church meeting and who knows, maybe you'll experience a feeling that you never felt before.
@hiake: you're right, i don't think we can differentiate between God's words and words the author put in himself. but like i said before, i know the truth through my relationship with God. and faith. after all, belief takes faith. i don't think anything the Bible says is made up. just as today i can hear from God, i believe that what the author wrote was also God-inspired and strictly so. haha. yeah, i understand where you're coming from about the wooden stool. and about that, you're also right (as far as my knowledge goes) in that no scientific instrument could prove God's existance as a human at one point in time. but i can offer this to you: there are some Roman texts that records existance of a man scholars & such people believe to be Jesus because of the reaction of the people & the king at the time to this man. (sorry, i don't really remember specific details, just that such texts exist). i don't blame you for being confused as there are many many images of a higher being. for me though, i believe i've found the absolute truth and i'm gonna hold onto it until i die. hehe.
@wind2000: The truth is... I used to receive bible lessons and such @_@b Went to church for a while (which doesn't work out at all)... So yeah, I kind of doubt that I will go back there. When one is surrounded by hypocrites (there are many level of hypocrisy in religion, I just used the most extreme example in my previous posts), it is difficult for one to be faithful... @chickenutbread: LOL It's great that you've find your faith. I guess the bottom line is that if it lends you strength in life, no harm's done (unless of course if one of these days you decided to put down all atheist and agonists...) I have yet to find my faith in seeking the "truth" (well, very subective here ) Perhaps one day I will be convinced (I never said that I cannot be convinced, just that nothing has yet tried and succeeded), but at the moment, I pursue my truth by asking millions and millions of question. Science so far has not failed me, so I am hitching a ride on that boat... for now
I know this is prolly to hard for non Christians to understand or comprehend but Jesus commanded that we ask for his guidance through the holy spirit whenever we read the Word of God. AS a Christian myself, i say this is a must. with that in mind this translation and that translation is not an issue because God himself is guiding you literally, if its a currupt translation you WILL KNOW and you will get rid of it. there are many newage/christian groups and bibles about, a Christian should avoid them because they are not really the words of God. hiake, its nice to see that you have an open mind but the bible says those with a hard heart (figuratively speaking) will not find God. i can tell you now, the bible says if you knock on the door, he will open, but the bible does not say, he will knock on your door in the hope that you open. Time is short, tomorrow could be our last day.
^ wow, i'm glad you're so straightforward. and i don't know, to me God does knock on our doors through other people or other methods. and IMO, we can't force. and i don't know if hiake will understand what you mean? but i agree with you about the "you will know if it's a corrupt translation" part. keep on going at it! and what 'new age/christian' bibles/groups are there?
YES very true, i was going to say that but i wasnt sure if i was going to be Understood correctly. Thats why i say, when judgement comes and non believers see there final abode, they would obviously say "oh i never know etc etc" "its not my fault etc etc" without realising that God himself saw to it that they be told over and over by those who knew him. There is plenty of newage/christian groups, just google it (or yahoo it, as i do). one example would be the 'Jehovah witnesses' that knock on your door, they have there own version of the bible that blatantly corrupts the real bible. for example, the word (Jesus) and God are the same but in the Jehovah witness version it says that Jesus and God are 2 different Gods which fits in with the Jehovah witness beliefs. check out the mormons too.
Because we humans are greedy and care only for our own needs. EVERY problems boils down to man misusing his freewill, has nothing to do with God. Judgement is in place for a reason. If there was world peace, people would find another reason to not believe......
@Master_g: I maintain my skepticism in how believers can TELL the version of bible they study is truthful.
Humans only, Humans have 3 parts, body (what u see in mirror), soul (ACTUAL YOU, voice in your head), spirit (Power that sustains you, you also have a spirit body). Animal only have body and soul, but no spirit. God did not give the breath of life to animals. Animals dont go to hell either,when they die, thats it. Only spirit can enter heaven which is why animals cant. But there are animals in heaven, not ones from earth, but ones that were made in heaven, for heaven.
