why would God knowing our actions be against our freewill. haven't you ever been in a situation were you just know exactly what someone is going to do or say? well if you did then congratulations cus you just took away their freewill, makes no sense rite?.
no one has been in that situation because no one is omnipotent. look. the contradiction comes in as: lets give free will a definition: the ability to choose what we want to do. God can foresee our future actions, OR God has even set out a plan of actions for us (in other words fate, destiny). now with the previous restriction, if God gave us free will, then it isnt free will anymore (due to the previous restrictions).
providing 'God has even set out a plan of actions for us (in other words fate, destiny)' as you said. But if 'God can foresee our future actions' as you said, then the above can not be true. so i guess its down to weather you believe God can foresee our future actions (as i believe), or God has even set out a plan of actions for us (in other words fate, destiny). BUT if we dont have freewill then that would make God a liar wouldn't it?
i dont pretend to understand any of this, but based on the quote from your previous post, im just trying to explain.. what i thought was: foresee implies plan set out, and that in turn contradicts free will.. but thats it, i dont believe in this just like you, so i wont discuss further on something i have no knowledge about..
I just have one question, how can God, omnipotent as he is (hypothetically), foresee something that is hypothetical? I mean, if he can foresee our future actions, does that means he can see us turning left AND turning right (assuming it's a choice of making a turn)? If he can only foresee ONE future, and somehow that future must be true (I got that sense during the exchanges of this thread), then there's no freewill because God ALREADY know what we would do? I guess the contradiction comes in whether God can foresee our future (and consequently, of our choice of actions) or we have freewill (means that he would not foresee ONE future because we can totally choose otherwise)... And in no part I say God has set out a path/plant of action for us, but if he can see our future (destination of some sort), there cannot be freewill(?)
Since He's omnipotent, He sees our choice which does not mean He will interfere with what we choose. So in the end, free will is there.
I guess... But then again, I think the whole discussion is on the point of whether God sees the consequence AFTER the action (thus predetermining the fate?) or seeing the action itself... Back to my example, does God see me walking down the path on the right side or just see me making the choice?? In the former case, it means that I WOULD choose the right side (no pun intended), but the latter case, there's the space for a freewill still.
God eventually sees what you decide and what outcome it would bring. There's the free will at all times because YOU and solely you who are making the choice. If He predetermined our lives according to His will, one thing for sure which would not occur is death and illness.
I guess that's true... But the "eventual" part gets problematic, it is freewill if God sees the outcome AS WE MAKE THE DECISION (i.e.: turn right), but if God sees me turning right and the paths which follows hereinto before I even recognize that there are a choice of left/right, then freewill doesn't exist. And no, it's just my view. Since I have no idea which would God see. But I am just pointing out the conditions, assuming that there's an omnipotent God, for humans to have freewill.
@wind: You mean historically according to the bible right? Before Adam and Eve is exiled from the garden of Eden right?? However, at this point in time when we are no long in the Garden of Eden... death and illness is imminent to human, no amount of following can revoke death and illness. Plus, if there's no death, wouldn't the earth be getting too crowded by the minute (more births, but no death)?
if we were immortal i believe God would have possibly placed a limit on the population. the earth is also 2/3 water so God making an extra 1/3 land we would probably have more than enough room. i also doubt we would be confined to earth either. but this is not supported by the bible, just a possibility.
Hmmm limit to population = killing the hypothetical unborn life (I would regard it as vasectomy and tubal ligation) so what makes? As to having 2/3 water... so God only watch for humans? How about the marine animals???
lol i said it wasn't supported by the bible, its was just a possibility so i cant really explain the technicalities. P.S Huh!!! how did u manage over 4000 posts, beats my 195 :(
Yup, thats what i meant. As God is omnipotent, He can create space but im getting a little side tracked here. Back to the free will part, when you don't see the choice, doesn't mean that its not there and that free will cease to exist. Someway somewhat, humans always have to make choices in life. The only time where free will is forever out of our reach is when death takes us.
I think we can definitely agree on that, death is the only inevitable (be there heaven/hell or otherwise)
Free will and free will in theology are very diff't things. I personally believe in free-will and I think it is pretty obvious that the decisions you make will have its own consequence. It's pretty common sense, given a situation and trial and error variables, free will is based on the rationale of the human mind. How can you believe everything in fate? Fate is an abandonment of one's rationale. Fate is not taking responsibility, and using 'fate' as an entity of excuse and reasoning to placate the soul. It sounds cliche to some, but it is exactly what it is. The same applies in religion. Now if you folks are debating free will in Christian Theology, then we have another can of worms. From Judas, to God, to Jesus. The contradicting views are so blatant, that there is never a satisfiable answer.
