I have never heard or experienced a Mandarin-speaking person claim that "Cantonese isn't real Chinese." It's ignorant talk, really. I'd punch the lights outta the person who would say it, though.
Sorry about the late reply, I have not realized you've come back to continue this "debate." Picking up where we left off: Actually, what I stated was perfectly valid. Geographic location in China generally reflects the cultural aspect as well. Take for example, the Jiang Nan area (region around Shanghai) differs a lot in terms of culture, compared to the Central Plains and areas further Northeast. The geographic location is what sets apart the local cultures of China. I know full well that the predominant Chinese population of Singapore descended from Cantonese and Kejia (Hakka) laborers. And I know full well that such local dialects are alive and well. If you bothered to read what I wrote, I indicated that Mandarin is one of its official (I previously said "National," which is wrong, the National language of Singapore is Malay, my bad) languages. You seemed to equate "Cantonese" with "Southern Chinese," that was the problem that I had. I'll try to make this clear and short, in case you misinterpret my meaning - you did not directly refer "Cantonese" as "Southern Chinese," but that's what it seemed like, after you made the remark that "Taiwanese are most similar to my idea of what Cantonese culture is." I cannot help but disagree with this quote. First off, I need some proof that Taiwanese are "much more similar to Cantos than Mainland Mandos." As well, please specify "Mainland Mandos." Who exactly are you referring to? Why not just call them Northerners? After all, most, if not all predominant Mandarin populations (without an indigenous dialect) are located in Zhong Yuan, Dong Bei, etc. The Taiwanese have just as much (or little) to do with the Northerners as they do with Cantonese speaking populations. If anything, Taiwanese have much more in common with their relatives in Fujian province as they constitute the region which is referred to as the "Min" speaking region. Taiwanese is a derivative of the Min Nan dialect. Their culture are almost exactly alike. The Min dialect spoken in Xiamen is almost exactly as the Taiwanese on Taiwan. So what if a Taiwan ren would rather identify more with a Xiang Gang Ren more than a "Mainlander," (won't even comment on the trivial bs) what does that prove? That Taiwan culture is more similar with Cantonese speaking areas than the "Mainlander"? I was not wrong. It is true that Guangdong was an experimental trading zone made by the Qing government. Foreigners were first ordered to conduct trade in Guangdong trading ports (Hong Kong, Macau, etc.). Of course, after the disatrous Opium wars, Sino-French wars, Sino-Japanese wars, Yi He Tuan, etc. More ports were opened up in the Northern areas - from Shanghai to Tianjin to Qingdao, and so on. However, it is clear that the first experimental ports were located in Guangdong province, probably due to the fact it is further away from the political powerbase in the North, therefore it was thought to be "safe" for experimentation. We see a similar approach by Deng Xiaoping with his opening up policies. The implementation first took place in Guangdong province. Cities such as Shenzhen are now booming. The reforms have gradually been implemented in Shanghai's Pudong area, and more recently, development has shifted from Pudong to Tianjin's Binhai area. Coincidence? I think not. What you said now, that: "HK's technology burgeoned past Shanghai's after the British took over" is a far cry from your earlier assertion that "Shanghai's technology was never superior to that of Hong Kong." Hong Kong's economic progress has much much more to do with the exile Shanghai industrialists than the British themselves: Do take a look at this: http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/99/0927/north_station.html Some significant names include the Tang family (family which owned a massive textile empire): Tang Hsiang Chien and Henry Tang Ying Yen. More are included in the link above. Today's Shanghai is gradually displacing/eclipsing Hong Kong, it is more reason as to why that the absence of a Mainland rival is one biggest factors that made not only Hong Kong and Taiwan, but also South Korea and Japan the East Asian economic powerhouses we have today. My apologies for any rude remarks, however based on your reply, I am inclined to make the conclusion that you have very little idea as to why people like me would make such defensive replies in the first place. If China's political system have any problems at all today, it would certainly not be because it is "Communist" (in this case, Mao Zedong Thought, or Mao Zedong's interpretation of Marxist-Leninism - which is the basis for "Chinese Communism"), as you suggested in your previous post. Among the largest problems associated with the Chinese political system today is corruption and incompetence. Not only that, we can also throw in censorship in the mix. This is largely due to the rise of capitalism since the opening of China in the 80s. Look at the recent purging of Chen Liangyu in Shanghai. That's what I mean. Back in the good old Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, the "authority faction" (led by Liu Shaoqi) were being overthrown by the masses. Based on what a team of Japanese journalists reported (Yomiuri), criticism of political leaders were abound on the city walls, some even denouncing Mao Zedong and Lin Biao. And Chinese values do not have it's equivalent? Tell me then, why is it that when Westerners were still living in caves, we Chinese were already developing political thoughts and ethical systems. Why is it that with the sole exception of the past 300 or so years, that we Chinese were not only more technologically and economically, but also more culturally and socially advanced civilization than that of the rest of the world? How is it that Confucianism was able to spread so rapidly throughout East Asia, despite attempts to destroy it by the Great Emperor Qin Shihuang? That our historians are amongst the most objective ones ever in history? And so on... We Chinese were amongst the most open and modern of all peoples (case in point: Tang Dynasty), yet at the same time, inclusive and ethnocentric. We fell behind due to incompetence and lack of adherence to our traditional ideals. You can go on and on about how Western values are the sole reflection of Modern values, I could careless. And yes, it is a "BIG DEAL" that I can access this website from Shanghai, after all, was it not you that made the comment: "Are you kidding me? Where do you live? How are you able to have free speech to argue with me? " Ignorance is bliss.
what the.......of course cantonese is a real language part of china! Just because mandarin dominates most of china it doesn't mean cantonese isn't a Real language. Does that imply that only "mandarin" is the "real" chinese language??!? There are many unknown small dialects around china as well. Also cantonese is part of the "guangdong" and not just hong kong. If he can go deeply into the 'real chinese' then he should understand people do not speak "CHINESE" in CHINA, they speak different dialects. Wha........chee sin lo!!
True there are over 50 dialects of chinese. And you can't quite expect them to poke out each and every dialect and state, "what you're speaking is not chinese". But what i find most interesting, in a case study of peers born in Guang Dong, is that the highschoolers these days are now more inclined to making mandarin friends than cantonese friends. True family influence plays a large role in what language of preference the child will choose to express himself, but the school forcing them to accept, and learn is also a major piece.
though cantonese is cool to speak, there are a few "loud people' who are almost as bad as the loud mainlanders when it comes to being in public, no offense this is just my observation....
ok, panda, ribs. you're both basically saying the same thing. 1) you both agree that both Mandarin and Cantonese people are CHINESE people, they have different cultural aspects. 2) experimental trading zones = opening ports throughout china to essentially "experiment with" trade. <_< That being said, I think ribs meant Taiwanese pop culture is similar to HK popular culture. And historically, it would make sense if their traditions were similar due to geographical proximity and all. As for the Shanghai businessmen, sure, they may have contributed something to the Hong Kong economy by starting businesses in the late 40s - 50s, but don't forget the free market policies that were introduced in the 60s by the British.
You know what, one of the ways to improve your spoken Cantonese and Mandarin is to watch TVB or ATV where they air shows etc. in both languages. I've since improved in my spoken skills as we receive them by satellite. I was surprised when at the airport a comment was made by a sales lady that I was from Hong Kong and my accent gave it a way. I told here that I wasn't from there. It was indeed a compliment.
personally that dont really piss me off or anything, even tho i am chinese and a cantonese speaker.. whoever says cantonese aint really chinese!! they are so naive and prolly jealous that they cant speak it !! plus they cant prove anything !
I won't be annoyed at all because I will reply with my usual acid tongue "well, of course, because it's too difficult to be learned by the general Chinese populus, who are too busy being proud."
LOL, i would jst cuss em out in cantonese. They might not understand, but it'll would make me feel alot better.
i've never had that happen to me although i've had cantonese people tell me that cantonese isn't real chinese cuase it's so full of slangs, that there is no written words for half the things they say LOL
^ so true about all the unwritable slang... i used to ask my parents how to write suchandsuch slang and they said there was no such word... but man... this thread reminds me of high school when everyone was chinese but the abc's kept on making fun of the 'fobs' ....anyways, getting back on topic, chinese are chinese no matter what form of chinese dialect they speak
wow thats a first. i never had problemss with any manderin people. they just go o ok and then speaks english to me. yes cantonese is not manderin, but some word sound so much a like and most words have the same first letter when u pronounce it like the word sky, tian in manderin and teen in cantonese. either way i'm right now i'm learning both and maybe one day everyone will know both and this misunderstanding the thread owner has might go away.
lol i've heard about people like that.. saying canto isn't "real chinese" .. i've also seen and heard for myself this one girl (fob) .. i remember she was saying how someone asked her if she was chinese, and she goes, "no, i'm hong kongnese".. i'm thinking in my head, "wtf?! is there even such a thing as hong kongnese? lmao it's a part of china too ya know which makes you chinese, you dumbass." i hate her anyways. >P soo many ignorant and stubborn people in this world.. ;x
^ a lot of hong kong people say they are "hong kongnese" (for lack of a better word) then to say they are chinese, which i dont agree with, since i would call them chinese
