Reguardless if the dali becomes a martyr he will be forgotten just as easily as the KING, niggers now adays dont know more then what the class room teaches so no nigger is grateful for any of his actions. Those that try are just morons with a false sense of brotherhood to something they know nothing about. and killing the dali is obiviously not going to make him a martyr because he is supposably "not" behind anything like the riot and such so why would they idolize him and put him on the pedastal unless he really was behind it all, the riots the crap in the newspapers.
Please read the following post. Now please tell me what evidence if any can you can find in this post that can back up the initial claim. I see none. As for the rest of your post... I think Ralph handled it pretty well.
prob not lol. but just saying that newspapers just show bad news, never gd news unless its about their own country.
ok....so you are saying since westerners have done this to china 200 years ago. its ok in turn for china to do the same to tibet? whether or not the western world is afraid of china or not, it is just plain wrong conquer a country, take their resources, and tell them how to live. You actually expect them to just sit there and do nothing about it?
Like every nation that has conquered another the reason is simple it's because they are stronger and more capable of being on top, so therefore they are justified in ruling them. you should not be giving that bull shit about how imperialism is something new now. It is NOT WRONG it is the right thing to do. Tibet can not be living in their primitive lifestyles any longer. Tibetans should be embracing the up and coming world They should embrace it, because they are lucky they are not living in a previous years where instead of letting them protest china can easily come and just start killing people to show that there is no way to resist. The only reason it doesn't happen now is because the UN would come in to protect Human rights and cause another World war Probably if that would happen
"Lets learn from history, shall we..." indeed, Your condescensions aside, the historic problem that your illustration provided (as the basis of the Boxer Rebellion and impetus for eventual Qing overthrow) is emotionally compelling but your analysis is inherently flawed. Firstly, You're talking about "China" as if it was one politically continuous entity throughout history when it clearly was not. While people accept the idea that Chinese culture has endured for more than 5000 years, the People's Republic of China is a politically new country with less than a century's history. The reason that the imperialistic powers were able to rape the Chinese at will during the latter 1800's was that the Qing government (themselves foreign invaders [the Manchu] of the Chinese who overthrew the Ming) was governed poorly. The Empress Dowager, in her last act of selfishness, stopped much needed reforms that would have helped strengthen the nation. Instead she killed off or exiled the reformers and spent monies earmarked for military use on her own pleasure palaces instead (in Law Enforcement we used to call that embezzlement or misappropriation). All the while she successively allowed foreigners of take slices of China (so long as it allowed her to stay in power), leading some astute western observers to compare her actions on the Chinese nation to be "the death of a thousand cuts" (reference made to a horrific style of Qing execution in which the condemned is killed by taking progressive cuts of flesh off of him; aka "Ling Chi"). Certainly, the imperialistic west were no angels, but they were able to come into China and take at will because China was so poorly managed. This was the impetus that drove Sun Yat Sen, et al, to take up the idea of overthrowing the monarchy in favor of a republic. That is, the dismal conditions forced or compelled the Chinese themselves to politically act. If you examine history in general, political change only comes about when people are miserable or complacent. If they're hurting it forces them to act, if they're too lazy some one will come and take it all away. Your argument of... "...we are at the same situation again. except, this time around they use the guise of "human rights" to weaken China and hope to again eat-up China's lands and money" ...dismisses the fact that there is a huge difference. The "west" is actually China, Inc's best customer (and vice versa, China is the west's best supplier), China only got to where it is today financially because of the west buying their cheap products, and indeed allowing the PRC to make a "great leap forward" from third world status in the time of one generation. So instead of "weakening" China, frankly China owes its current financial wealth and status to its trade with the west; or to put it bluntly, if China was still closed and didn't engage the west (as during Mao's admin) they would still be a back water bunch of clod breakers that are regularly made fun of on TVB. So I don't know of how the "west" could come to take this away; they helped to engineer it. And far from "weakening" China, human rights for the common Chinese is a good thing. Unless you consider police holding people without charge a good style of government? Ironically, many of the political pressures that are exerted onto the common man in the typical Chinese street today remarkably resembles the imperial corruption that was faced by the average Qing citizen. The former Mandarins have now been substituted with party bosses who ride roughshod over the average Chinese under the pretense or color of authority. I'm curious as to what would happen if this boiled over, that is, would there be enough to forment another revolution (especially in the rat assed poor regions). I'm sure there's plenty of Mao wannabes waiting in the wings. Again, I know that once people hear "China" they tend to get all emotionally wrapped up in supporting their race or ethnicity, and the government in Beijing is counting on that. Especially those in the diaspora that are too ignorant of the issues or too lazy to find out more before casting an emotional vote. I'm just saying that you need to be careful that you're not inadvertently rooting and supporting factions that are actually hurting the common Chinese. Oh and BTW, even if you don't want to trust the BBC; but just who are those guys?:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7336639.stm Ralph
im not really into politics or world issues for that matter....im just usually on this site for the tvb downloads.....but ralph's comments are very informative and very well put, you can tell for sure he's pretty well educated.. i actually found myself reading them all and everything else in this topic...props for that one~-lol
wow, this is a pretty heavy debate about this matter! here are my thoughts about it and i am prepared to have ppl jump down my throat about it: if the tibetans feel that they need to voice their frustrations let them, china does have human rights issues and that has always been the case. however, they are making progress with this matter. it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. westerners should know by now that you cant push china into a corner. by causing so much trouble in relation to the torch and shit like that lately they are backing China into a corner. when china is backed into a corner they do stupid things. china will be fine in a few weeks. things will blow over when the next big thing happens somewhere else. i agree with some of the comments about how ppl are jumping on the "save tibet" bandwagon. perhaps they should look at matters in their homeland first. no country is perfect and we all have "black eyes" some just cover it better with makeup.
ye i thought about that too, how the UK can have such strong opinions about Tibet without even having much information and would feel so strongly to jeopardise the london olympics and protest when we have problems with ppl attacking innocent social care workers, yet no one seems to care much or even protest for better security. funny that. ppl don't tend to address their own country's problems first, they seem to address other countries, prob cos they are all so proud of their own country and as much as they are faults they don't want to address them.
i hear ya on that one! just yesterday in texas or somewhere around there they took 413 children from a poligymist (i cant spell that word) colony and all the girls have been sexually abused. did that make the front cover of the newspaper NO!!! instead there's more stuff about the torch and SF. i'm not down playing what happened in tibet and the innocent lives that have been lost but what about the thousands of children being sexually abused. how about some ppl protest to the lack of the ability our police forces have in trying to lock them pedos cause of the lack of funding and other bullshit like that!
There's an inherent problem with using distraction as a defense, namely it sidesteps the issue. While everyone does it (individual people, politicians, governments, et cetera) it should be recognized that pointing out other totally unrelated faults, obligations, or responsibilities of others does not mitigate the problem at hand. Again, if this thread was initiated with the purpose of discussing the pros or cons of Colombian leftists holding hostages ad infinitum as a means of political expression, then I would find discussions of Tibetan independence vis a vis Chinese (PRC gov) behavior to be a breach of thread etiquette. Conversely, discussion of the former while the thread topic is the latter should be refrained from. That said, I agree with Babs' observation that "...when china is backed into a corner they do stupid things" especially in light of the Tiananmen incident. If anyone had bother to read the declassified US Embassy coms related to that time, its strikingly clear that Zhongnanhai cannot be put into a position of seeming political desperation. Their historically typified response has always been martial and generally done in such excess that it leaves one wondering if and when the CCP can ever lose its penchant for "picking up a meat cleaver to perform surgery?" On the other hand, to a lot of the Tibetan diaspora, since their "nation," for all intents and purposes, has already been subsumed by the PRC, with increasing numbers of Han Chinese being imported daily (rendering Tibetans as a minority population even in Tibet), they may feel that THIS is the best time to apply maximum public pressure on the PRC, and from sources that the PRC has to listen (to some degree) to. Despite the loss in Tibetan lives that this will bring, they may see it as a necessary sacrifice for the greater goal of a free or independent (or less PRC controlled) Tibet. It certainly is a gamble for all concerned. Even US president Bush has to make a decision over whether to attend the opening ceremonies with the political implications of either supporting Tibetans or the PRC government. Granted, many say that the games should be free of politics. However considering that the Olympic torch itself was a political invention by Nazi Germany, and that nearly every Olympic competition since then had some attendant political issue, I think the torch vis a vis Tibet isn't anything extraordinary or out of historic character. Personally, I'm hopeful that Tibet gets some political gain out of this, and that the PRC learns that you can't hang your dirty political laundry on the world stage without causing a stink. But as Babs' stated, I don't think this is headed for a happy ending. Ralph
And to think, when the Beijing Olympics are finished, everyone will probably have forgotten about Tibet
Sadly, I think you're right. Certainly not by a 100%, but I think you've hit the nail on the head in that western media in general has a very short attention span. However, during this time of heightened attention though, I think the Chinese (meaning Beijing) played this very badly. First by sending in the troops, they sent the world a certain signal. If they had not sent troops in, I doubt that the negative response on the torch route would have been as intense. Second, by sending in goon squads (made up of the PRC equivalent of a police swat team) to surround and guard the torch, that also sent certain signals; as in "this is where our political soft spot is, so we need to do everything in our power to protect it..." I mean, like, Da-uh... is that an open invitation or what? Not only did the PRC play the hand badly, they did it in front of the world. If they had just let the thing alone, ie. let protesters grab the torch and extinguish it in front of international cameras and not make any moves in Tibet except to offer to reach out to the people with talks and offers of negotiation, they would have come out looking more like victims of a political witch hunt. As it is now, they've essentially validated themselves to be "thugs," validated the Tibetans as "victims" and the next generation of people around the world will automatically vote Tibet over China as soon as they hear the start of the question. For the Tibetans, this had become a political coup of monumental proportions. Meanwhile, I'm speculating that governments around the world are analyzing how this is being played out as a lesson in statesmanship, and are bemused at Beijing's clumsy moves. Let's face it, people always loves the underdog or victims. By painting themselves into a corner of thuggery, China screwed themselves more than any Tibetan ever could. That is, Tibetans may have lit the match but the PRC was obligingly dumb enough to fan the flames, and now they're getting royally burnt. Oh and BTW, just an indication of the kind of talk that's going on about the PRC in regards to Tibet, Human Rights, et cetera; look at Yahoo Answers (Home > Travel > Asia Pacific > China), where normally discussions on travel have also been peppered by those more of a political nature. This is exactly what Tibetan politicos want, and exactly what China had hoped to avoid. Ralph
FK off Tibet This issue Pisses Me off! Just FK OFF TIBET! Godamit... I wish China would've solved this Issue "OLD SKEWL" by bringing them moda fokerz down wit a frikin mower :rl:.... jezuz christ man... what a bunch of A$h0l3s.... CHINA FTW!-bigclap
This shit is getting out of control...I don't know which side to support...better if I stay neutral =P
