Just to set the records straight, actually Tibet has never been part of China, it was actually invaded by China. So to say China has a rightful claim to a territory is kind of ridiculous. But to the victor go the spoils in a battle so yes now Tibet belongs to China. China has politically oppressed Tibet for many years but that unfortunately is the law. You may not like it, but it's there and yes maybe it was forced upon you by an occupying government but if you fight back, what do you expect the other side to do? I would expect, fighting back. China has done some bad things to Tibet, I agree, including building up in their territory all those resorts and whatnot, it's a shame you'd do such a thing to such a pristine area. If Tibet really wants independence it needs to be politically gained and not forcibly given. By rioting and causing so much trouble it puts China on the spot in front of the international community. Maybe that is what Tibet wants overall but if you back China (or any country) into a corner or force their hand, you should be in it for the long bloody haul. I don't think Tibet has the stomach to actually confront China, they want the outside world to help, which I don't think they're going to get much of besides verbal and written statements by foreign countries and the UN that China should be open to discussions. We all know how useless the UN has been to this date. I say give Tibet a chance at freedom. Then let the Muslims take them over, kill off their religion because their infidels then let China come back in an resettle. Either way, China should keep independence an option and negotiate.
^ now i may agree with you about giving Tibet a chance, and the fact that both have had their share of mistakes, but "kill off their religion"? i am a member of their "religion". and i dont really appreciate that comment. fyi, buddhism is a way of life, and not a religion.
Every country do what they need to do to survive. I'm pretty sure there is "oppression of human rights" everywhere it just depends at what extent they take it to. People only care about this is because there is a international event and it's giving China publicity. Do you think after the Olympics people are going to be this passionate about it? other than Richard Gere? So, genocide is happening in Tibet...but statistics show that the population of Tibetans have increased after China "invaded" Tibet. I'm not an expert in this topic and by reading from both sides...I agree there is manipulation on both sides but I think people are making a big deal about something that doesn't concern them. Seriously, for all those people that are not living in China or Tibet and they're protesting and causing riots....please be a hero and let all the Tibetans come to their country and live in their homes and save Tibet from genocide.
So I'm assuming that if the Europeans and US can come and take bits and pieces of China like they did a hundred years ago, you in full agreement that that is a sound and fair political policy? That the "boxers" who tried to throw out the foreigners were wrong? Exactly. If you looked a little deeper maybe you can find out how the Chinese did that. Like maybe a new 4 USD billion rail link bringing in thousands of ethnic Chinese to the point that Tibetans are now a ethnic minority in their own country. In a few more years, numbers of ethnic Tibetans will continue to decline while total population in Tibet will continue to rise. And no, I'm not counting Mexicans sneaking over the border, just the wholesale importation of Han Chinese as encouraged by the PRC government. This way they can finally take over the whole area as the allegiance of the imports will be to China and not Tibet. After a generation or two, there won't be enough natives left to matter. So yes, they "invaded" Tibet, and they're continuing to do so with not just occupation troops, but occupation population. This is similar to what Japan tried to do to China during the early years of the war, esp in Manchuria, in order to overwhelm the enemy socially as well as militarily. Once you fully co-opt their society, their civilization will cease to exist. Like da-uh, they've been doing this since Roman and Viking times. That's just idiotic because Tibetans already have a home. Just kick the Chinese out of their houses and the problem will be solved. Seriously. Or... taking your suggestion on being a hero, why don't you let the Chinese come and take over your home so that they can leave the Tibetans alone? Like, be a hero? Ralph
I'm just saying every country do what they need to do....I'm not saying it's right. But there are many countries that did something that people don't agree with. Right now, I'm just saying, I don't understand why people are making a big deal about it now? this problem has been ongoing for a long time....is it because the Olympics is held in China this year and people are all of a sudden interested? Why would I need to be a hero? I don't give a crap if Tibet gets freed or not. Besides....there is nothing the Chinese would want from my house....so I'll doubt even if I did invite them in they would not come.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7428403.stm So, no sports mix with politics? Really now... What next, a tourist war? France, UK, Korea, US, whoever, caution their citizens against travel to China? LOL... This is seriously ridiculous. And with an earthquake clean up going on and everyone feeling for China, it has to go and do this at this time? Sheesh, talk about timing miscue. Beijing seriously needs a new PR agent. A lot of people have already forgotten even where Tibet is, and of course the PRC gives us a nudge just to remind us of the issue. Talk about shooting your own foot... Ralph
You are asking? You want a short answer or a long answer? But one way or another, I WANT Tibet to do whatever they want, but I KNOW that it is not happening because at the moment China is desperate for any kind of competitive advantage in world politics and world economy (not to mention they've got a bad track record of dismissing protest by force and blood and no sign of rehabilitating from said gory habit). No offense. It always struck me as extraordinarily funny how people react to bad news about China. They get defensive, protective, and all of a sudden buying into the "news" released by Xin Hua and insisting that Western media to be discriminating and biased against China, and that they are evil organizations which feeds off the misery of China or something. Hah. I love the fact that some keep on bring up misinformed history and data to support their cause. And then there's the new generation of cyber Red Army which has only one stance: China cannot do any bad, if it kills someone, it must be that said person's deserving it or ran into the tank (the year 89 come to mind). It's a phenomenal sight, really. How can anyone "love" China so much without being informed about its bloodied history? Oh wait, they are uninformed, period. Mystery solved. A note to said cyber Red Army: (some of you) your ability to spell and write properly, or lack thereof, speaks volumes about the likelihood of you being actually informed about the situation. Incoherence suits you really well, and drives the point home that some opinion is not worth the time to refute indeed, it's impossible to take said posts seriously. Lastly, I need to thank a a few really informed members whose posts are such great read. It's like reading Tony Judt (whose specialty is Eastern Europe, I know) all over again, only it's on Chinese history this time. Keep the essays coming
There's certainly a huge amount of double standard going on when Chinese view the world compared to when the world views Chinese. I find that many pro - PRC types will puff out their collective chest and point to the chip sitting on their shoulder and shout to the west, "never again" in a way similar to the Jewish cultural reflex vis a vis the holocaust. China is eager to have people look at how it was victimized by history, and because of this, it as a nation, AND as a people, engage the world with a sense of entitlement. Suppose hundreds of Frenchmen gather around Chinese establishments threatening to kill them unless China apologizes for whatever? Like they did to that French place in China. Is this how China is stepping into the new world? Well, if you want respect, you have to learn to respect others people's point of view (& not threaten to hurt them unless they see it your way). Unfortunately, many in China don't want to see this. Ralph
^ Ah, entitlement, that's the word I was looking for when I was thinking of the victimization complex ("oh, poor, helpless Chinese people, always bullied by some evil OTHERS, and they can be SO unsympathetic.") The thing is, IMO the way Chinese government is run doesn't work in the long run (iron fist, military, censorship, cut corners)... But in the best interest of the Communist Party, nothing can be done because, quite frankly, democracy almost EQUATES them falling out of favour and of power, and lots of violent riots. But the way it is going with Tibet, I look forward to see if history will indeed repeat itself in the same manifestation as it did 19 years ago (sigh, I still have news recordings from that dreadful event, for whatever reason)
i didnt vote cos i dont know what to pick,,, both got good reasons as to should Tibet be free or not.. so i pick easy way out...there should just be a compromise so that yes Tibet does remain with China but can still retain abit of independence too..but obviously that would be impossible...so i'm out..><"
I don't think Tibetan "independence" would be much an issue if the PRC behavior on the ground had been a bit nicer. There are ways of conquering a people and have them take your side if you know how. If one looked at post war Japan and Germany as a conquered people vis a vis the United States, one has to admire how the US was able to take a former enemy's people and co-opt them into its political sphere. China needs to learn from this example. Their way of doing things right now are reminescent of how the Japanese and Russians treated a conquered people; that is, everyone you own now belongs to me. This does not sit well with anyone, regardless of race or nationality. Sending in thousands of ethnic Han Chinese to take over jobs of substance (much like the Japanese did in Manchuria) doesn't really help the perception that China is raping Tibet. For my money, Tibet isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The best that it can hope for, is enough political pressure around the world would eventually nudge the PRC into recognizing Tibetan issues as legitimate political needs that must be attended to at discussions and not at the point of a bayonet. Ralph
^ True enough, even Japan learned it lessons. Just look at its way with Taiwan, Japan's brief occupation had an enduring effect on Taiwanese culture. Whereas Eastern Europe is still pretty begrudging towards the Russia. So yeah, it wouldn't help China's reputation with this kind of iron fist attitude... And no, don't see this whole Tibet business really going anywhere, but it was a great time to raise awareness and put this on the table of world politics. I mean, just to remind people that it's not all flowers and songs in the oh-so-awesome China. There's always a dark side to the moon... *snort*
This thread sure is more informative than I expected. Many of you are quite well read and informed on China's history. And some comments regarding the news associations is right on, especially when they pick a cause and decide to champion its chant. The press can be a powerful force, positively or negatively. I am for neither Tibet or China because it should just take a natural course, not decided by others. But, that is just my thought.
I think that what many on both sides of the issue fail to appreciate regarding Tibet is that, even if it were an independent state, the best regional option for it to begin with is to hitch its wagon to China. Since China is a growing country with expected economic advancement for at least the next several generations, it would actually be Tibet's best trading partner. This is something that India obviously sees as it goes literally out of its way to avoid antagonizing China over the Tibet issue. It does this because it too, realizes that, as the fastest growing regional power, and probably the world's next super power, China needs to be treated with political kit gloves or else India may risk offending what may become its best trading partner. But, the issue here isn't that Tibet refused to trade with China, it was China stepping in and saying, I don't need to trade with you because you already belong to me, that has Tibetans (and much of the world) in an uproar. Its obvious that Tibet has tremendous resources that China wants to tap exclusively. And to be honest, there really isn't much in terms of competition regionally except for India. However, India doesn't have the same political gravitas or influence that China does, so the PRC would take the lion's share of trade regardless (even if it were a open trade equation without use of guns) My view is, that China should begin to recognize the value in making the Tibetans less angry. It has to learn to dangle political carrots. This independence thing shouldn't be dismissed outright but replaced with some other solution that would satisfy Tibetan minds and sentiments. People respond well to hope, or even the illusion of it. Of course, the distraction to all this is the original question (in this thread) of whether or not Tibet was free or "belonged" to China in the first place from a historical perspective. The answer is a clear and distinct NO. Tibet was never a part of China until this last century, when it was politically incorporated. That matters for little overall consequence though, as the situation on the ground is what it is. Ralph
something that ive ended up being speechless when someone brings up this topic is when at school. people telling me how wrong it is to cause violence in tibet killing innocent people. i know its not in china's interest, but isnt it only fair that if someone some place does not want to be part of a country, just let them be? just saying that tibet belongs to china doesnt sound like a strong argument to me. im also getting thrown at me that after all the defence of china i can think of, they say "you know that china censore their news right" which i know and im left speechless because then they believe that thats the only source im getting my defences from, a censored new report. so whta im trying to get to is, is there a another reason wht china want to hold tibet as part of their country other then "it just belongs to china"
Everything, Tibet has the natural resources, not to mention that more land almost ALWAYS means better in world politics (because, frankly, we are not getting more land on the face of the Earth). It's a political interest thing.
