ok. i'm going to end my part of the discussion on tibetan buddhism. however, i will comment here and there. over all ... this belief is bloody confusing to me -_-2 (but don't take this personally BabyRain or anyone, its just IMO). therefore i'm going to do some outside reading on this belief and the tibetan's cultural view.
Finally... Fabulous. I enjoyed replying to both of you as well as they are similar so I just need to repeat myself and not fuss about anything else. That is how YOU look at it; from YOUR current mentality. You are all into rewards and easy life aren't you? Did it occur to you that these people want to suffer because in that way they learn faster? There's no doubt that living in poverty teaches you to be modest much easier than if you were to live a rich comfortable life. Now, I said EASIER.. which is common sense. But for these people; they want to graduate. They do not want to be stuck in the cycle of rebirth. That's why they choose to undergo any kinds of hardships they may be facing now to learn the lessons that they are meant to learn. If they failed; for example; still craving to be rich, bitter about being poor, blaming everyone else for his bad 'fate', then it's too bad. Wasted effort.
^ Not really, because it is only natural that people has their own perception BEFORE they try to understand another's perception. In fact, I don't think it is ever going to end, the difference in the understanding of the world (aka world view) of each belief and religion is so different, otherwise there'd be ONLY one religion and/or belief and not millions of variations. Ciao Apollon!
I believe what I was saying is that whether one's actions in any circumstance is relative to how one views it. Take the example of Gautama Siddhartha. If he did not give up his status as a prince and all the wealth, would he not have reached enlightenment? Learning "good" lessons in life does not necessarily mean one has to give up riches and wealth, right? Another example, what other choices are there for a poor person if he does not want to endure being poor? Suicide? If we take suicide out, what options are there for a poor person to live on other than to endure living a poor life? Thus, a poor person would HAVE to have learned his lesson simply just by being poor and enduring it since he does not have another choice. Let's say the poor person somehow won the lottery and is experiencing riches and wealth. Would the Buddhist teachings say the originally poor person has learned his lesson? Like many theories, there are often more than 1 way of interpreting things. Therefore, those theories can never be considered as wrong. For instance, take the case of a poor person winning the lottery. One can say because the poor person has endured an early life of hardships, the lottery is to reward him. However, one can also say that the lottery is only to test the poor person. If the poor person gives up the riches and wealth, then he would have learned his "lesson."
@MDD: I don't quite understand your question, but I am going to reply to it the way I comprehended it... IMO, a lesson learn is not exactly an action-based thing. Just like one can "claim" to follow a certain religion/belief without quite grasping the concept embraced by the religion/belief or one can really study the said religion THEN say one follows that said religion/belief. It is not the words "I totally follow this religion/belief" which decides whether one is actually comprehending it. As an analogy to your rich vs. poor example, giving up the riches without realizing the significant of such an act is meaningless in terms of "learning" the lesson. Because giving up the riches means nothing in itself, it's all materials which will do not get carried over to the other plane (after death or what not), it is the knowledge that "it is going to be tough if I lack the riches to rely on, however, I decided to challenge myself to the utmost limit" (or its variation) that counts. Hope it make it clearer... Just note that it is my interpretation of the thread, no affiliation with Tibetan Buddhism whatsoever... To me it's just common sense...
The answer is NO. He would NOT have reached Enlightenment. Because when he gave all the riches and wealth up; and went to ponder upon Life itself and live in hardship; that's when he UNDERSTOOD the term 'suffering'. And you are asking a totally hypothetical question considering that Buddha did indeed achieved Enlightenment. So let's move on to your next example. I am surprised you even brought up the option of SUICIDE when I have said that this act is totally CONDEMNED upon in Buddhism. So no, SUICIDE is never an option. Well; you are looking at it TOO LITERALLY. I am trying to give AN EXAMPLE here. I never said the lesson is "LEARN HOW TO ENDURE A POOR LIFE". But the lesson COULD BE in modesty; humbleness and such. And many other lessons in life. So anyway; yes you DO indeed have a choice. You can still choose to be rich; and try to learn modesty that way. You can still choose to be born into a famous family and choose to be humble; etc. etc. One DOES have a choice. In fact; you may feel lazy and choose to be born into a wealthy comfortable family, just to 'enjoy'. But then you would not have learnt anything if you merely just breezed through your life; and in the end; it's a wasted cycle of lifetime. Meaning, you did not achieve anything spiritually. True, you may have 'enjoyed' your lifetime; but the question is whether you would pick one moment of enjoyment of one lifetime over something greater which is to escape the cycle of rebirth completely and be granted the green card to advance? After advancing; you'll enjoy a greater bliss than is possible felt whilst you were on Earth. It's just like sitting for an exam... You either burn the midnight oil to study hard; or you want to fool around.. and fail your exams. In that moment of fooling around; you DID ENJOY, although momentarily ... then you find that you failed... Then you'll have to take the exams again and again. In the Buddha's example it already happened and he already made a choice which is to be born as a Prince and then to give it up realizing the meaning of having to give it all up... (as what hiake said in her statement) So anyway, for example; if you choose to be born into Africa; you are probably not going to experience how much easier life in America is; so in a way; that circumstance DOES play a part in making the POSSIBILITY of you learning the lessons successfully higher. Now in your example; that when an originally poor person somehow won the lottery; it is also a test to him. How would he treat his newfound wealth? Would he grow careless? Would he grow lazy? There are a SERIES of lessons to be learnt in ONE lifetime.. Doesn't mean that you are just meant to LEARN ONE SINGLE lesson. Yes that's right.. So what exactly is your point here? Of course there can be many possible outcome in one's lives; that's how it is meant to be. If there's just ONE SINGLE outcome; then it wouldn't be a test or choice. You would have to make the choice leading to that one single outcome; therefore you are considered "forced" in making that choice and not because you have really learnt your lesson. And bear in mind, you are talking as if there's only ONE single lesson to be learnt when in fact there are MANY. Each outcome brings you a different route.
I did not say there is only 1 single outcome. I said there is more than 1 interpretation of the outcomes, which makes the theory not as believable and truthful. I only put 1 outcome in my example to make things simpler. Let's make a simple example. There is a burning building with 5 children inside. 4 children are unknown to Bob and 1 child is Bob's son. Bob can only save either the 4 unknown children or his own child. Suppose Bob saves the 4 children. One can say it is the correct action because 4 lives are "worth" more than 1. One can also say that Bob made the wrong choice because he let his own child burn in the building. Now Suppose Bob saves his own child. One can say he did the correct action because that child has a direct relationship to Bob and therefore, Bob has the responsibility to save his child first. However, one can say that Bob is selfish to watch and let the 4 unknown children burn in the building. My point is that no matter what choices a person makes in life, there is always more than 1 interpretation of the situations. Thus, the way the Buddhist scriptures interprets a person's actions is only 1 way of viewing it. It may be the correct way or the incorrect way, but nothing can be done to it since one cannot "argue" before reincarnation. Because there is more than 1 interpretation of one's actions, one can technically argue for the good or the bad in each of the different interpretations. Like Babyrain stated, in the Tibetan Buddhist teachings there is more than 1 lesson learnt in life. I think lessons are learnt in every life and in every situation since every reincarnation is different. But depending on how the purgatory judges and interprets one's actions and lessons, one could have made the correct choices in one view while the purgatory looks at it in another view. The way how the Buddhist scriptures mentioned the Eightfold path as a guide seems like there really only is 1 correct view in life.
ok i understand ever thing babyrain said,it's easy to understand a lil out there for me but i understand it.lol and i like the way she layed it out nice,i always was thinking there God was budda.lol but now i know better.lol and there a few thing's about her way of beleveing that kinda like mine. but let me tell you a lil bit about the way i beleve frist,befor i point out these things.lol well i'm a Christian and beleve in God and that Christ died for our sin's. but unlike some Christian i don't go to church becuase i feel alot of church's twist the word of God to what they want. and then there the one vers church's where your never learn nothing.lol i go by the bible and only by the bible when i study thats my church. everybody has the right to there way,but if i'm going to do something i want to do it right at lest.IMHO so if you don't beleve this way it's cool,but i do and don't think your change my way of thinking. i won't do you that way,so give me my respect that i deserve and rember it's the way i think. so something i don't like is so called Christian's telling ppl they going to burn in hell if they don't become Christian. that's not the way to win ppl over to your way of thinking.lol we are to not put down another's way of life,and push our way of beleveing on them in the bible it said don't cast your peal's to swine.lol this may sound bad to some,but it only mean's not to try to tell someone about Christ if don't want to know. your to plant a seed and if it doesn't take let them be. only share what you beleve with ppl who want to know it. God gave us all free will to live like we want,and saying someone will go to hell isn't your place nether. that give's you more of a chance in my book at going to hell then them. becuase only God can say such thing's. i'm not going to give every vers for what i beleve,becuase i'm just here to coment on this topic,and i'm already geting off topic a lil bit as it is.lol ok i this is what i beleve. in the 1st earth age(they are 3) God made heven and the earth and we all lived with God in the spirt not in flesh. then the devil got a 3th of God's children to folow him,to try and take over heven. this is where God had to chose to kill these children or not. well God did away with the 1st earth age wiped out the whole earth. killed the dinorser and other thing's that was in flesh at that time. after this he made man into flesh to be born of woman with no memery of what happen in the 1st earth age. so man could start new not knowing who went to God's side or the devil's. this 2nd earth age is alot like babyrain said's it's a test or like a class. we also get to make up our mind's if we want to folow God or the devil. it's all about free will,but some ppl aren't too know about God. God even said if they want to beleve a lie i will send them strong delusion's so they will beleve the lie. but will these ppl go to hell,no! these ppl will have there chance in the melenem after the 7 seal when Christ come's back. after most of the world have worshiped the devil in the 6 seal becuase they beleved in the rapter. they'll have a 1000 year's to get there mind right if they want to be with God or go to hell with the devil. God give's every chance to his children befor he give's up on them. but there is no hell right now,and the devil is still in heven in chain's. if you die you go to heven no mather who you are to await your just deserve's. if you good and beleved in God you go to where the all the good ppl go. but if your bad you go to the other side of the guff,like a big pit the make's it impossible to cross. but you still have hope of being saved.IMO God is a loving God but he can hate to it said's it in the bible that he hated esaw. but i'm done you know that i beleve is not the same as most Christian's.lol and that's ok in my book,one of my fav teacher's is this man,but he don't hold no punch's when it come's to telling the ture.lol so it might be a lil to spicey for some ppl taste http://www.shepherdschapel.com/ just in case you want to know more about a Christian that only go's by the bible and not a buch of other stuff. if not what ever your lose not going to beg you.lol but you can see babyrain we beleve about this life being a test or a class. i also beleve heven is in another dimension. and other stuff but i'm tired and going to crash.lol it took along time to read thro all these page's then wanted to post. so i'm going to bed.lol
