thats cuz u misled me by stressing the phrase "without a choice" and im not gonna make any assumptions cuz i know nuthin bout it lol u see from what i understand after reading ur stuff, reincarnation is divided into 2 which is human and animals. im guessing the reason for it is becuz the 2 have different intellectual level. but bear in mind among animals, they are also varying lvls of intellectual dont u ppl think so? like what i've said earlier we are in a way 'animal' but mankind is egoistic therefore we distinguished ourselves from them =P
In what what did I misled you? I said SUICIDES are not give a CHOICE, which is true. The example you given is NOT suicide at all, because common sense would tell you that the poor fella is being FORCED to do something which he would not do in the first place, correct? And common sense from reading my post would also tell you that it is NOT the type of suicide we are talking about when one's taking one's life voluntarily? That's right. And I still maintain that animals and humans have different ways of evolution; because they have different purposes in life and they communicate/think/act differently from humans. It's not egoistic because it is just the way it is. How are you supposed to understand how to judge a cat when you are not a cat yourself? From what I see, you are the egoistic one here by claiming ants are retarded and chickens are stupid. When in actual fact; you can never prove how exactly they think. The example you give of the ants leaving a trail scent is just what you discovered from a human's perspective; ie. how the humans studied them and come to conclusion. It is in no way, a truth that ants are dumb or following a routine just because they are told to do so.
doesnt matter if a person is being forced or not cuz it will still be an act of suicide...and god knows whats written in the scripture cuz i have no idea at all, i couldnt be so sure if it really meant it or not maybe not now, but after several million years maybe a munky might evolve to the same lvl of intelligence as humans now. i know it sound crap but hey its possible since we human have already achieved it, it is possible for others as well it is fact that these creatures are still lacking in intelligence. or are u trying to tell me they have evolved into a complex creature like us? well at least scientist have done thier homework and came up with that conclusion. why are u so sure they arent programmed that way? written in the scripture?
Obviously I really don't see your point. Buddhism has always condemned upon suicides; and it's common sense that tells you when one is forced to do such an act, it's not SUICIDE per se. Also, #8 of the Eightfold Path; Right Contemplation. Using intuition to judge the act of that 'forced action of taking your own life' without reasoning in itself, and using the Middle Way of Common sense, it would have given you the answer already. What's your point? That's exactly what I am saying, I am saying here the animals have their own intellectual levels and spiritual levels. What's your point in that statement? For all you know, monkeys and other animals are already at a higher intelligence level than humans. Just that it's unseen/unheard to us. People regard animals as dumb creatures because they do not speak English or Chinese or French, etc. but then animals regard humans as dumb creatures as well. Some scientists, as reported in an edition of "The Scientific American", have discovered that there is a language of bees. Bees can give very detailed instructions to each other, and they even hold conferences! Some scientists became interested in dolphins, in their peculiar speech, or as they thought of it, in the peculiar sounds which they made. Those sounds were recorded on a tape recorded, and were then reproduced at different speeds. At one speed, the speech sounded very very much like human speech. Some of the texts written by the Holy Lamas of Tibet stated that they were able to communicate with the animals through telepathy. Animals are entities which have come down to this Earth, in a special shape, in a special form, in order that they may do their own task in a manner most suitable for their own evolution. All I know is that the scriptures stated animals have their own purposes in life, their own ways of learning, their own ways of evolution and own ways of advancement. Animals communicate through telepathy and that's what is stated in the scriptures as well. Also, they are able to pick up a higher level of vibration that humans cannot hear; and perceive which cannot be seen by the human eye. That is why sometimes, people claim that dogs are barking because they are able to perceive spirits/entities. Therefore; I am sure that the animals are not as stupid as humans perceived them to be. After all, the scriptures stated that the concept of Time for an animal is much different from that of a human. As for your statement about humans being animals... yes we are indeed 'animals' as well. More savage than any of the Nature type animals. Because humans have a thumb and fingers, they have been able to develop along certain lines because they can use their hands to fabricate things, and that animals cannot do. Man lives in a very material world and only believes that which he can grasp between his fingers and thumb. Animals on the other hand, do not rely on the use of their 'hands'. They evolve spiritually, and most animals are spiritual, they do not kill unless for the absolute necessity of eating.
Ouch, my eyes are dry after reading 14 pages of essays and reasonings. Good posts and many interesting points here.
It's written in the scriptures? What a weird question Just as if I ask you how did the Christians come up with the concept of Hell & Heaven..? Written in the Bible. Something from Wiki: Belief in reincarnation is an ancient phenomenon. This doctrine is a central tenet within the majority of Indian religious traditions, such as Hinduism (including Yoga, Vaishnavism, and Shaivism), Jainism, and Sikhism. The idea was also entertained by some Ancient Greek philosophers. Many modern Pagans also believe in reincarnation as do some New Age movements, along with followers of Spiritism, practitioners of certain African traditions, and students of esoteric philosophies such as Kabbalah, Sufism and Gnostic and Esoteric Christianity. The Buddhist concept of Rebirth although often referred to as reincarnation differs significantly from the Hindu-based traditions and New Age movements in that there is no "self" (or eternal soul) to reincarnate. During recent decades, a significant minority of people in the West have developed a belief in reincarnation.[1] Films (such as Kundun and Birth), contemporary books by authors such as Carol Bowman and Vicki Mackenzie, as well as popular songs, regularly mention reincarnation. Some researchers, such as Professor Ian Stevenson, have explored the issue of reincarnation and published suggestive evidence. Some skeptics are critical of this work and others say that more reincarnation research is needed. Buddhism: The Buddha has this to say on rebirth. Kutadanta continued: "Thou believest, O Master, that beings are reborn; that they migrate in the evolution of life; and that subject to the law of karma we must reap what we sow. Yet thou teachest the non-existence of the soul! Thy disciples praise utter self-extinction as the highest bliss of Nirvana. If I am merely a combination of the sankharas, my existence will cease when I die. If I am merely a compound of sensations and ideas and desires, whither can I go at the dissolution of the body?" Said the Blessed One: "O Brahman, thou art religious and earnest. Thou art seriously concerned about thy soul. Yet is thy work in vain because thou art lacking in the one thing that is needful." "There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Thy thought-forms reappear, but there is no egoentity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the word." and on Christianity The Bible contains passages in the New Testament that seem to refer to reincarnation. In Matthew 11:10-14and 17:10-13, Jesus says that John the Baptist is the prophet Elijah who had lived centuries before, and he does not appear to be speaking metaphorically[14]. There are various contemporary attempts to entwine Christianity and reincarnation. Geddes Macgregor, wrote a book called Reincarnation in Christianity : A New Vision of Rebirth in Christian Thought. And Rudolf Steiner wrote Christianity as Mystical Fact. Several Christian denominations which support reincarnation include the Liberal Catholic Church, Unity Church, The Christian Spiritualist Movement, the Rosicrucian Fellowship and the Lectorium Rosicrucianum. The Medieval heretical sect known variously as the Cathars or Albigensians who flourished in the Languedoc believed in Reincarnation, seeing each soul as a fallen angel born again and again into the world of Matter created by Lucibel (Lucifer). Only through a Gnostic 'Rebirth' in the Holy Spirit through Christ could the soul escape this process of successive existences and return to God.
^ Christians part i know but what i meant specifically, how did the buddhists come about with the actual concept of reincarnation, Overself, 9 planes, etc etc... Basically, where do those concepts acutally derive from? ie: Christians has first person account story (minus the hypothetical part), and do buddhists also have one?
I thought I said it's from the scriptures? The origins of Buddhism stems none other from Gautama Buddha, of course. "Buddhism is one of the oldest religions in the world. Gautam Buddha (563 BC-483 BC) laid its foundation after he gained Enlightenment under a Bodhi tree at Bodhgaya. India's Who's Who ? The preaching of Lord Buddha revolves around attaining salvation from worldly sufferings, universal brotherhood, peace and non-violence. " During the lifetime of Gautama Buddha, a large number of people became his followers and Buddhism became the state religion of a number of states like Magadh, Kosala and Kaushambi. Great kings like Ashoka (of the Mauryan dynasty) and Kanishka (Kushan dynasty) became Buddhist and they helped spread the sermon of Buddha far and wide through their kingdoms. King Ashoka is said to have built 84,000 stupas and a large number of rock edicts and pillars throughout his empire to preach the message of Buddhism. As Buddha preached his ideas through word of mouth, there were no Buddhist religious scriptures. Later on, his preachings were compiled into Buddhist canon in Pali language, which are also known as Tripitikas. By the second century AD, Buddhism was divided into two main branches-the Mahayana (greater vehicle) and the Hinayana (lesser vehicle). In the course of time, Buddhism became a major religion and spread through most parts of East Asia. and i think my post sort of addressed your question too
^ I just find it ironic that all religions including Christianity or in this case buddhism (way of life) are all hypothesis based on humans perceptions when one wants to rationalize. -^_^
Haha of course, if you have a religion with solid proofs and authentic evidence which can be proven by science, there won't be any disagreements now would there? Religions are our own humans' interpretation. So rationalizing it based on our own interpretation is required as well. Unlike some people who just accept anything blindly without any attempt to question the logicality and the rationale behind it.
It can be.. I am not saying science cannot be wrong, but at least the theories are proven and developed with reasons and facts.
Which then later are disproved as there are "newer" developments. Never ending stories until death overtakes us and we see for ourselves. However, wouldnt be awful that once we are dead, we found out our religion/ way of life was wrong? -unsure
Question about Dalai Lama: Correct me if im wrong, but i remember reading it somewhere that certain Dalai Lama remembers his previous life? Why is that so? Is it because his Overself is about to graduate hence he possess the ability to reincarnate with full memories instead of just seeing his mistakes in the Hall of Memories? And why dont do this "incident" not happen to lesser ranks monks?
I thought you said you read all these posts.. Wind We (dann and I) actually did discuss about it already... Btw, there are some people (not only the Dalai Lama) that claimed they have memories of their past lives. Here this is a link on an interesting article about past lives http://www.globalpsychics.com/enlightening-you/metaphysics/young-psychics/past-life-memories.shtml and also an interview with the 14th Dalai Lama http://www.dalailama.com/page.54.htm Question: About you being the incarnation of the bodhisattva of infinite compassion, Avalokiteshvara. How do you personally feel about this? Is it something you have an unequivocal view of one way or another? Answer: It is difficult for me to say definitely. Unless I am engaged in a meditative effort, such as following my life back, breath by breath, I couldn’t say exactly. We believe that there are four types of rebirth. One is the common type wherein, a being is helpless to determine his or her rebirth, but only reincarnates in dependence on the nature of past actions. The opposite is that of an entirely enlightened Buddha, who simply manifests a physical form to help others. In this case, it is clear that the person is Buddha. A third is one who, due to past spiritual attainment, can choose, or at least influence, the place and situation of rebirth. The fourth is called a blessed manifestation. In this the person is blessed beyond his normal capacity to perform helpful functions, such as teaching religion. For this last type of birth, the person’s wishes in previous lives to help others must have been very strong. They obtain such empowerment. Though some seem more likely than others, I cannot definitely say which I am.
Some articles on the topic of reincarnation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation http://science.krishna.org/Articles/2002/10/025.html http://www.harekrishna.com/col/books/KR/cb/chapter1.html *And please check out this link http://www.shaktitechnology.com/rebirth.htm on the article entitled THE NEW SCIENCE OF DARWINIAN REINCARNATION since it's too lengthy to be posted here.
