Yes, that is exactly what I'm pointing out. The entire region was everyone's door mat for centuries, with the deed to the place changing hands every few hundred years. At times it was in Chinese hands, other times not. It was your blanket statement that implied continuous Chinese possession of Xinjiang that didn't correlate with what is previously known of it's history, and I thank you for your correction. Other than leaving out the two rebellions during the war lord period (after Yang Zengxin was killed and Sheng ShiCai, another war lord, ran Xinjiang with Soviet support, and who incidentally executed Mao's brother, Mao Zemin), your timeline is more or less accurate. I'm sure there's a another story there that is sub rosa. I mean Mao's brother being capped by a warlord and very little is said about it? Something doesn't fit right with that. No offense but allow me to cut you short; you're preaching to the chior. I don't have any issues with the idea that national borders change from geopolitical influence over time. In fact, if there is one immutable "given" in the study of history, that would certainly come close to being within the top five. So yes, I recognize the fact that borders change over time. FYI, as a child, I remember when looking at maps of China that included Mongolia, and was deeply puzzled when that large chunk of northern China went missing. So no, I don't have any issues with changing borders. What I do have issues with is when history is bent to fit a current political aim. For example, Chinese or Japanese omissions (Tiananmen) or rewrites (Nanking) of history, or political claims of ownership based on a fictitious interpretation of history (Tibet being always a part of China - so how could it then invade China?). I can understand and accept that both Tibet and Xinjiang now belongs to China because the PRC got there recently (as one US general was fond of saying) firstest with the mostest. Thus, if China says it's China's because they have the most troops there? That's fine. But please don't say it's China's because of some make believe land deal from thousands of years ago. That's just being intellectually dishonest and unfair to history itself. What really gets my back up too, is the flood of sites now that have historic maps redrawn to fit current political agendas. That is just shameful as it distorts the thoughts of entire generations and makes real history even more obscure. Actually the PRC curtails free speech just about all over China, not just in Xinjiang and Tibet. They especially do it in Beijing, where people from the whole country come to petition or protest for grievances that are either ignored or left unresolved by local authorities. The petitioners are usually roughed up by police and prevented from ever getting an audience with authorities. They especially don't like it when petitioners talk with western reporters.
Although the ownership of Xinjiang did change hands quite a bit, however its interesting to note that China was the only one who after losing Xinjiang would return to reclaim it repeatedly again and again over the course of history unlike the other "occupiers" who may have occupied Xinjiang ONCE and after losing it, moved on and not return again to Xinjiang. So that was difference between China and the other "occupiers" of Xinjiang. Although yes technically I should have been more accurate about China's rule over Xinjiang. but in the greater scheme of things I'm not really wrong. As I already told you dude, this is a short summary not a detailed account! Good, I'm glad to hear that. Yes I agree China's claim on Tibet is contentious and may not be as solid as many would like, however theres no doubt that China has a close relationship and connection with the Tibetan region for over a thousand years which is far more than the white populace in countries like the USA and Australia, who only set foot on these lands in the last few centuries and who have NO connection culturally or historically to the region and continent before that. So regarding your charge of "manipulating history", Doesn't every time white Australians claim their country belongs to them or white Americans claiming America belongs to them, is that not manipulating history?? because at the end of the day, why criticise one offender? Why not criticise all offenders??
I'm not going to belabor the point since you know what I'm getting at. You don't have to agree with it, but I do believe you're still more wrong than right (See below). The other remarkable thing about history was China's co-opt of the Mongol Empire. China itself, after its contraction eastward and breakup at the close the Tang, was just a collection of bickering war lords (Five Dynasties Ten Kingdoms Period) until it somewhat coalesced into the northern and then later into the southern Song. The area in Manchuria concomitantly existed first the Liao, and then Jurchen Jin (which conquered the Northern Song) dynasties. Inotherwords, legally and politically, China ceased to exist after the Tang as it was broken apart into various nations at war with each other. The closest modern example would be post Tito Yugoslavia balkanized into multiple sovereign states (Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Slovenia, Macedonia, and with qualification, Kosovo). We can accept and recognized that poltically and legally, the country of Yugoslavia has ceased to exist. Thus when one looks back at post Tang China, even though the area was populated with the same people, the political landscape was one that there was no longer any central seat of governance. Rather, multiple competing factions each established borders and areas of control. Through warfare, the remnants of what was China was beginning to coalesce back towards central control. But it was for naught. The entire area was invaded and conquered by the Mongols. So technically, China became a part of Greater Mongolia, as the golden horde spread first south, and then west, to Xinjiang, then through it to eastern Europe. Only after the start of internal bickering did the horde fall apart, and the Mongol Empire contracted back eastward. They then anointed themselves as the Yuan, and settled in lands that were traditionally populated by Han Chinese, and ruling over the Han (like the Han now rule the Uigher). Over time, the Mongols got fat and lazy (or maybe they just like the food?) and slowly became more Han. This is the other thing that I've alluded to, where local culture co-opts an invader, and in effect render the former invaders into locals. Sort of like the Stockholm effect, or going native, but in the extreme. It was through this that the Han peoples were able re re-establish their identity and finally politically resurface as the Ming. Thus, it was the resilience of Chinese culture that enabled its people to endure defeat and subjugation, and to eventually rise to the fore once again. The above took about 500 years. Thus, with a gap like that, and the fact that China politically and legally ceased to exist during a large portion of the time frame, you can see why claiming borders today by alluding to "thousands" of years of China's stake on it, becomes problematic. I know that there was an example used here of the US civil war, and the claim that as the US remains an integral entity, so too should other countries (like China) that briefly become several separate nations, that their national history should remain recognized as singular. But the US did, in fact fall apart into two separate sovereign states. The Confederate States of America, had their own president, currency, military, and was functioning like any real sovereign government would. Why did the US become whole again? Because the North invaded and conquered the south, much like how China invaded and conquered Tibet. Hence Tibet is legally and politically a part of the PRC today because of its army being stronger than Tibet's, like the Yankees were stronger than the Confederates. In other examples, where one side cannot take over the other (Koreas, Yugoslavia, and with qualifications, Taiwan), then they remain as seperate sovereign states. Hence, when the Tang broke apart, they became many different countries; there was no longer any legal or political "China" per se. Er... yes, Manifest Destiny as taught in US schools (even when I was a kid) is recognized and long considered to be a racist self serving Euro-centric policy. As far as a close historic relationship vis a vis China and Tibet? Well, if you consider the wars that they fought against each other be termed a close relationship, then sure. Because this is a CHINA forum, jeez how many times do I have to pound that nail? I know the US, Europe, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Sri Lanka, et cetera, sucks at a lot of stuff. But do we need to talk about that here, in a forum dedicated to Chinese interest? I certainly don't believe so. I come here to participate in discussions about China. If I wanted to get bad news about the US, I just turn on CNN (and it looks like Obama is turning into a world class political boot licker, but that's fodder for another forum). ***Sidebar*** Some interesting discussion about the Xinjiang situation and other up to date news from a variety of sources: http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/what-should-china-do-about-the-uighurs/?ref=asia http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_...9&sid=24520103&con_type=1&d_str=20090710&fc=8 http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=25129&article=Beijing+professor+held+for+Urumqi+blog%3a+watchdog http://www.chinapost.com.tw/china/national-news/2009/07/10/215744/Mosques-told.htm http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/10/content_11688781.htm http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/10/content_11688780.htm http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2009/07/200971075832436566.html Interesting that the PRC news source is now trying to put a back to normal face in the region despite the obvious simmering sentiments, and continue to press their case that it was outside agitators that caused the violence. Meanwhile China's close ally, the DPRK, hasn't much to say about Xinjiang, but took the time to remind us of how much China loves the DPRK.
It's called double standards.....BTW, can one rationalize the huge loss of civilian life in Iraq as a result of US/UK's invasion based on a bunch of lies...
One can't. But we're talking about Xinjiang here; as far as I know, China wasn't involved in Iraq, and the US/UK wasn't involved in Xinjiang. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8144362.stm Chinese troops are becoming their own worst enemy. If anything, they look more like thugs or GASP ...the LAPD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROn_9302UHg ...and we all remember what happened in the aftermath. If the PRC wants to decrease the chance for violence, they need to decide if they want their troops to behave like disciplined soldiers, or armed thugs. Public perception is a very hard adversary to deal with.
Chinese government releases ethnic affiliation of dead in Xinjiang. Personally, I think this is a bad move; score keeping like this is only going to further stoke the hard feelings already present within the populace:
If China don't release the info, people will still blame China from hiding the truth or covering it up, especially the West, not to mention it's own people wanting to know the truth, I kinda expected most of the dead were Han Chinese but whether the official dead toll is true or not, we just can't be sure. But I don't believe it's as high as those WUC people say it is. But we do know that both sides suffered casualties. [HIDE]"These incidents in China are as if they are genocide," said Erdogan. "We ask the Chinese government not to remain a spectator to these incidents. There is clearly a savagery here." From Yahoo news.[/HIDE] People supporting their own kind is expected but using the word genocide to describe the situation is just outrageous. Certain world leaders are only making things worst when they open their big mouths when they don't even know the facts to the matter at hand.
What's really tragic about this is, that we will never know for sure. There has been charges by Uighers that the Chinese numbers are fake. That is, there were several hundred Uighers killed by police, troops, and rioting Hans, but that the authorities purposely skewed the numbers to show greater Han dead in order to galvanize Chinese public sentiment against the Uighers. So who then should we believe? From past experience, most people would believe their poliitical roots. Those that have faith in PRC governance will doubt the Uigher charges whilst those that have issues with PRC governance will have doubts. Given the numbers crunching with last years earthquake, my personal opinion is that any PRC numbers tend to be suspect. Hence, to me, the released numbers, except to incite Chinese antipathy, are really meaningless. No, of course not. However, US soldiers weren't even in Xinjiang, so you can't pass any blame on them (or their usual moral repugnance) for China's behavior. Your's is a typical Chinese Nationalist Knee Jerk Defense; to automatically point the finger at US (ie western) moral or ethical lapses to distract from PRC misbehavior. While you may feel better, at the end of the day, China's issues remains hers to solve alone. Avoiding them by arguments of Logical Fallacy does a tremendous disservice to Chinese discussions. Moreover, the PRC does this to everyone (ethnic minorities and Chinese alike). So just because they're beating up Uighers today doesn't mean they treat Chinese people any better. As for the Rodney King video? I posted that as an example of how police or authoritarian brutality can frequently lead to public unrest. Again the link to the BBC video show clear examples of brutality or unnecessary force by PRC troops, and it's this sort of authoritarian excess that is going to worsen public relations for China in Xinjiang. That is, you can't really expect to restore the peace whilst your brutal tactics is stoking public resentment. And the latest update:
Certain myopic perspective offals by our regular pro terrorist writer should be evidence that goes to show his pathetic regards for human lives. Burning, looting, rampage and murder can be justified because his love for everything west is far superior and important then the stability and peace of an entire nation. And pardon me friends, discussing the rights of the Han Chinese who controls Xinjiang is a non starter to begin with. The UN clearly recognize Xinjiang as Chinese territory. Period. If that is thrown into question, then by all logical extension, as an example, all the whites should be evicted from the USA because they came as immigrants. The land belongs to the native Indians. And hell the Chinese were in Xinjiang longer before even Christopher Columbus discovered the Americas. And by all extension to that, the whole entire globe will be plunge into ethnic chaos overnight. Every single ethnically different village now in any part of the world can declare their own independence. And for crying out loud who gives the USA moral legitimacy to claim the higher moral ground when millions of iraqis were wiped out ? I am not even considering the bloodbath that is going on in Afghanistan and Pakistan now for fear of being disgusted with the findings. For a mature democratic nation that needs to maintain it crap hegemony and lord over all other nations in the name of promoting Freedom and Democracy that sounds like a load of rubbish good for the flies. The very structure that supports those murderous agenda are cemented with the bones and bodies of those who have died in vain. Get it out of your system already. The USA have no more moral authority then the toad stool that is feasting on the trunk of a growing tree. And for the last time there is every right to comment on the USA because some half wit insist that it encompass everything that is good and glorious and consider that the gold standards of international conduct. And thus, he who have set those standards needs to entertain its fallacy, else, it would be all hot air and does not even warrant a single ounce of credibility or content. Fine and well and bring up the glorious USA and all the western might, but first produce the Weapons of Mass Destruction that is in Iraq first before we even continue this conversation Else the whole entire Bush administration should be trialed for war crimes. Thanks for reading this. Mobi
Ever wonder why a certain enthusiastic anarchist here have thus far not been posting any video on the violence that is happening in Xinjiang ? Instead what we get is a clip of the police beatings on Rodney King. TALK ABOUT RELEVANCE ? LOL. Now back to the question. Why didn't he post any video at all ? What is there to hide and conceal ? I will post one first. Lets see how the Xinjiang violence is being played out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCuD7HrIq6o WARNING : Video Footage Contains Images of DEATH and SEVERE INJURIES OF MANY. You have been warned. Also, ever wonder why the world press have not been broadcasting those clips ? Are Han Chinese lives cheaper ? Why are the bias so skewed against China ? Have it been a bunch of the minority that have been killed, you can bet your last dollar that it will be repeated on every available western media for a week.
Dude if "continuous rule" is the only qualification for sovereignty for a piece of land then most countries today will cease to exist. Dude, many countries in ancient or medieval times broke up into many rival kingdoms before being united again by war, China is NO different. So please learn some history. As I said to you before, most countries around the world suffered from foreign invasions in their past history it was not a new phenomenon, and as regards to the superior Chinese culture overcoming the nomadic invaders, well theres no dispute from me about that. Dude as I said to you before, many countries suffered from foreign invasions in the past, not just China. For example lets take two other countries with a long histories like China for comparison ie. Greece and India. Greece was invaded by Rome for 476 years (146 BC to 330 AD) and then when the westerned Roman empire was weakened, Greece was ruled for a further 1123 years under the Eastern Roman empire (Byzantine empire). So collectively the Romans ruled Greece for 1599 YEARS!! Also Greece was ruled by the Turks for 421 years (1400 to 1821) So altogether Greece has been ruled by foreign powers for at least TWO THOUSAND YEARS!! (far more than China) So why don't you tell the Greeks and if there are any Greeks here in this forum that their country Greece politically and legally cease to exist during those time frames? lol and their borders today are "problematic" LOL India was also invaded by foreign powers ie. muslims and the British for nearly a thousand years (either partly or as a whole) and also India during long periods in its's history was split up into many different kingdoms ruled by different maharajahs. So why don't you tell the Indians and if there are any Indians here in this forum that India cease to exist politically and legally during these periods in their history? and their present borders are PROBLEMATIC! LOL And lets not forget about England. did it cease to exist when it was invaded by the Romans, Normans, Anglo Saxons and Vikings?? LOL, I'm sure that would be freaking news to some English Historians!! LOL So NO more disputes about China's claim on Tibet and Xinjiang then?? Thats fine by me lol OMG! Dude theres alot more to China's relationship with Tibet than fighting each other. Do you want to challenge me on it? Dude, like I said to you before, people make comparisons all the time, whether its about military, politics, current affairs, fashion, food and drink, girlfriends, political discssions etc the list is endless ITS NOT A NEW CONCEPT!! And people on this forum have the right to learn about this and see ALL sides of the picture, not just one! If this is too much for you than don't debate. LOL I don't have time to read your articles today maybe tomorrow.
Read this to clear any doubts about CIA involvement in Xinjiang. NOTE TO ALL : This blog post was posted last year by the author. He seems to have predicted the events leading to the current unrest in Xinjiang. Thursday, July 10, 2008 Court Documents Shed Light on CIA Illegal Operations in Central Asia Using Islam & Madrassas Court Documents Shed Light on CIA Illegal Operations in Central Asia Using Islam & Madrassas - Sibel Edmonds State Secrets Gallery Connects Pipeline Politics, Madrassas & the Turkish Proxies In a recent immigration court case involving Turkish Islamic Leader, Fetullah Gulen, US prosecutors exposed an illegal, covert, CIA operation involving the intentional Islamization of Central Asia. This operation has been ongoing since the fall of the Soviet Union in an ongoing Cold War to control the vast energy resources of the region - Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan - estimated to be worth $3 trillion. Court Case The scene for these dramatic disclosures was an application for a Green Card in the Eastern District Court in Philadelphia by "controversial Islamic scholar" Fetullah Gulen. Gulen, who has been living in the United States since 1998, argued that he qualified for the Green Card as "an extraordinarily talented academic." The court case was covered extensively by the Turkish press. Leading Turkish newspaper Hurriyet reported: "Gülen's financial resources were detailed in the public prosecutor's arguments, which claimed that Saudi Arabia, Iran, the Turkish government, and the Central Intelligence Agency, or CIA, were behind the Gülen movement. It stated that some businessmen in Ankara donated 10 to 70 percent of their annual income to the movement and that it corresponded to $20,000 to $300,000 per year per person. It added that one businessman in Istanbul donated $4-5 million each year and that young people graduating from Gülen's schools donated between $2,000 and $5,000 each year."Another leading Turkish newspaper reported (translated by Rastibini) Among the reasons given by the US State Department's attorneys as to why Gülen's permanent residence application was refused, is the suspicion of CIA financing of his movement. [ . . . ] "There is even CIA suspicion" "Because of the large amount of money that Gülen's movement uses to finance his projects, there are claims that he has secret agreements with Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Turkic governments. There are suspicions that the CIA is a co-payer in financing these projects," claimed the attorneys. [ . . . ] Among the documents that the state attorneys presented, there are claims about the Gülen movement's financial structure and it was emphasized that the movement's economic power reached $25 billion. "Schools, newspapers, universities, unions, television channels . . . The relationship among these are being debated. There is no transparency in their work," claimed the attorneys." Who is Gulen? Fetullah Gulen is "a 67-year-old Turkish Sufi cleric, author and theoretician," according to a recent profile in the UK's Prospect magazine. Prospect ran a public poll last month to find the world's greatest living intellectual. Gulen 'won' the poll after his newspapers alerted readers to the poll's existence. Gulen is also the leader of the so-called 'Gulen Movement' which claims to have seven million followers worldwide. The Gulen Movement has extensive business interests, including "publishing activities (books, newspapers, and magazines), construction, healthcare, and education." Gulen and the CIA The fact that the prosecutors in the court cite documents that claim that Gulen has been financed in part by the CIA is remarkable for a number of reasons, even though there have been strong suspicions about the CIA's involvement in the Gulen Movement for years. The Russian intelligence agency, the FSB, has repeatedly taken action against the Gulen movement for acting as a front organization for the CIA. In December 2002, Turkish newspaper Hurriyet reported: "Russian secret service claims: Turkish religious brotherhood works for CIA The FSB, the Russian intelligence organization formerly called the KGB, has claimed that the 'Nurcus' religious brotherhood in Turkey has engaged in espionage on behalf of the CIA through the companies and foundations it has founded. FSB head Nikolay Patrushev has mentioned the names of these companies and foundations, saying, 'The brotherhood engages in anti-Russian activities via two companies, Serhad and Eflak, as well as foundations such as Toros, Tolerans and Ufuk.' Patrushev has accused the brotherhood of conducting pan-Turkish propaganda, of trying to convert Russian youths to Islam by sowing the seeds of enmity, and of engaging in certain lobbying activities. These companies and foundations have turned up in the internet site of Fethullah Gulen [alleged leader of the Nurcu religious community currently living in the United States who is a defendant in several court cases in Turkey, accused of engaging in anti-secularist activities.]""Russia has banned all of Gulen's madrassas, and in April of this year, banned the Nurcu Movement completely. Gulen's Madrassas The Gulen Movement founded madrassas all over the world in the 1990's, most of them in the newly independent Turkic republics of Central Asia - Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan - and Russia. These madrassas appear to be used as a front for enabling CIA and State Department officials to operate undercover in the region, with many of the teachers operating under diplomatic passports. Why Central Asia? Central Asia, with its vast energy wealth, is of major interest to US oil and gas companies. The region is also of key strategic interest in the 'Great Game' as Russia, China and the US compete for dwindling energy supplies. The US government has been using Turkey as a proxy to gain control over Central Asia via Pan-Turkic nationalism and religion. Sibel Edmonds Case Twenty six people wrote reference letters supporting Gulen's application for a Green Card - most notably ex-CIA agent George Fidas, former Turkish ambassador Morton Abramowitz, and former CIA Deputy Director Graham Fuller who appears in Sibel Edmonds' State Secrets Privilege Gallery. I called Sibel Edmonds to comment on the latest revelations. She said: You've got to look at the big picture. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the super powers began to fight over control of Central Asia, particularly the oil and gas wealth, as well as the strategic value of the region. Given the history, and the distrust of the West, the US realized that it couldn't get direct control, and therefore would need to use a proxy to gain control quickly and effectively. Turkey was the perfect proxy; a NATO ally and a puppet regime. Turkey shares the same heritage/race as the entire population of Central Asia, the same language (Turkic), the same religion (Sunni Islam), and of course, the strategic location and proximity. This started more than a decade-long illegal, covert operation in Central Asia by a small group in the US intent on furthering the oil industry and the Military Industrial Complex, using Turkish operatives, Saudi partners and Pakistani allies, furthering this objective in the name of Islam. This is why I have been saying repeatedly that these illegal covert operations by the Turks and certain US persons dates back to 1996, and involves terrorist activities, narcotics, weapons smuggling and money laundering, converging around the same operations and involving the same actors. And I want to emphasize that this is "illegal" because most, if not all, of the funding for these operations is not congressionally approved funding, but it comes from illegal activities. And one last thing, take a look at the people in the State Secrets Privilege Gallery on my website and you will see how these individuals can be traced to the following; Turkey, Central Asia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - and the activities involving these countries.Many of the people in Sibel's State Secrets Privilege Gallery are closely connected to Gulen, and each other, as well as the operations that Sibel mentions. Many of them have actively advocated for using Muslims to further their own needs - from Turkistan to Albania and Central Asia. Marc Grossman, former State Department #3 and former Turkish ambassador, and one of the key named individuals in Sibel's case, is currently receiving $1.2 million per annum from Ihlas Holding, a Gulen-linked Turkish conglomerate. Sibel has previously referred to Ihlas as 'semi-legitimate' and 'alleged shady' - and emphasized that Grossman's current payoff is a result of services performed while he was in office. Grossman's predecessor as ambassador in Turkey was Morton Abramowitz - in fact, Grossman actually worked under Abramowitz in Ankara for a number of years. During that period, the US opened an espionage investigation into activities at the embassy involving Major Douglas Dickerson, a weapons procurement specialist for Central Asia. Dickerson and his wife, an FBI translator, later became famous when they tried to recruit Sibel to spy for this criminal network. Abramowitz, who is not listed in Sibel's State Secrets Privilege Gallery, wrote a letter in support of Gulen for his immigration case. He has long advocated the use of Islamic fighters in furtherance of US interests, including the Afghan mujaheddin against the Soviets and the Kosovo Liberation Army during the war in the Balkans, acting as an advisor to the Kosovar Albanians. Another player from Sibel's Gallery is Enver Yusuf Turani - Prime Minister of East Turkistan, a 'country' recognized by only one country, the United States. East Turkistan, aka Xinjiang, is officially a part of China, and home to the Uyghur people and the "Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement," a UN-nominated terrorist organization "funded mainly by Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network and received training, support and personnel from both the al-Qaeda and the Taliban regime of Afghanistan." In fact, the Uyghurs constitute a significant percentage of detainees - at least 22 - at Guantanamo Bay since 2001. Five of those have been set free, and were eventually sent to Albania, amid much controversy. According to TurkPulse: "One of the main tools Washington is using in this affair in order to get Turkey involved in the Xinjiang affair is some Turkish Americans, primarily the Fetullah Gulen team who are prosecuted in absentia in Turkey for trying to found a theocratic State order in this country because he runs his activities from the United States, his protégé. Another Turk used in this affair is Enver Yusuf Turani, who is the self styled Foreign and Prime Minister of the East Turkistan Government in exile. He has been an American citizen since 1998. Enver Yusuf is in close cooperation with Fetullah Gulen... Their activities for the government in exile are based on a report entitled “the Xinjiang Project” drafted by Graham Fuller in 1998 for the Rand Corporation and revised in 2003 under the title “the Xinjiang Problem.” It emphasises the importance of the Xinjiang Autonomous region in encircling China and provides a strategy for it."In fact, Abramowitz and Fuller were key players in the establishment of 'East Turkistan,' "proclaiming the government in exile within 4-5 months, starting in May (2004) and completing the proclamation in mid- September. The ceremony was held at Capitol Hill under American flags in Washington."Two others from Sibel's gallery, Sabri Sayari and Alan Makovsky, have been similarly involved with Gulen, Fuller, and Abramowitz - co-authoring books and articles, making joint appearances, dinners etc. Illegal Operations Earlier I quoted Sibel saying "And I want to emphasize that this is "illegal" because most, if not all, of the funding for these operations is not congressionally approved funding, but it comes from illegal activities."Where does this funding come from? Narcotics trafficking, nuclear black market, weapons smuggling, and terrorist activities. As Sibel makes clear in her The Highjacking of a Nation article, the management of the heroin industry from the farms in Afghanistan to the streets of London and elsewhere "requires highly sophisticated networks," from the protection of the convoys from Afghanistan through Central Asia to their final destination, to the laundering of the billions of dollars in proceeds in Central Asian casinos and financial institutions in Dubai and Cyprus. "So, who are the real lords of Afghanistan’s poppy fields?" Sibel asks. The heroin trade finances al-Qaeda and the Taliban, but they aren't the real lords of the poppy fields. Journalist Ahmed Rashid, author of "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia " and other similar books about these issues recently noted on Democracy Now that a "cartel" controls Afghanistan's heroin, which supplies 93% of global heroin supply. Sibel has been trying to tell us about these operations for years, but has been gagged by the State Secrets Privilege which was invoked citing certain 'sensitive foreign diplomatic and business relationships.' These 'sensitive relationships' have now been exposed to a degree, thanks to the immigration case against Mr Gulen - one of the Turkish operatives who have been fronting for the CIA in the Islamization of Central Asia, incorporating drug trafficking, money laundering, and the nuclear black market, and the convergence with terrorism. One Last Question At the end of our interview, Sibel asked me to leave you with this question: "After 911, the US Government engaged in mock investigations and shut down many small Islamic charities and organizations, giving the appearance of action in the so-called 'War on Terror.' Why did they harbor, support and resource Fethullah Gulen's $25 billion madrassa-and-mosque-establishment efforts throughout the Central Asian region and the Balkans?"------------ Cross-posted at Let Sibel Edmonds Speak (Email me if you want to be added to my Sibel email list. Subject: 'Sibel email list') Posted by lukery at 7/10/2008 01:15:00 AM 2 comments: Anonymous said... Sure sounds like a conspiracy....but since there is no such thing....??? August 5, 2008 7:46 AM Anonymous said... The region mentioned here (Central Asia) was a centre of Islamic activities, high profile schools (madressas)and scholarship before the Russian (Soviet) occupation. So Islamization here is like going back to their religious roots and not conversion or something like that. The public has been receptive to Islamic activities after tyhe fall of Soviets despite their rulers. Others are finding opportunities to make use of it to further their plans. August 6, 2008 1:05 PM From : http://lukery.blogspot.com/2008/07/court-documents-shed-light-on-cia.html
Check out this video clip at the following URL. The "Encirclement of China" policy is real and a strategic priority of the USA. The present situation in Xinjiang is just one of the manifestation of that policy to deal with China's growing strength. http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=1838
You can't cherry pick your way through history; else Japan would have just as legitimate a claim on a continued Manchukuo, and Mongolia would have a legitimate claim on all of China, as it conquered it once already in its herald of the Yuan. It isn't so much that I need to "learn some history," than rather you seem to want to ignore it for political convenience.
BLR is right. And the real difference dude is China is a communist country, it doesn't pretend to be anything else, while the US proclaims itself to be the upholder and champion of human rights and democracy in the world!! understand the difference?? Geeze your argument is getting dumber and dumber lol How many countries in the world today haven't been invaded by foreigners in past history?? So using your logic does that mean all these countries lose their legitimacy and sovereign claim to their land?? LOL And talking of "cherry picking" how come you apply this principle on China only? Why not some other countries?? LOL I bet you going to use the "chinese forum" excuse move, again. LOL
You wonder why that Rebiya Kadeer Uigher leader is based in the US and DC no less when all that time why she wasn't in some Muslim country preaching on the terrible oppression of the PRC. If you are so righteous over your Muslim values why base yourself in a country that launches crusades against two muslim nations in the past decade? the anwser: This shemale is in cahoots with the US and under their payroll. Their only objective is to undermine China and the region for their own interests. I am so glad we Chinese are reciprocating this with our own spy network and tech theft . http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0907/S00161.htm#a Wednesday, 15 July 2009, 12:29 pm Opinion: F William Engdahl Washington is Playing a Deeper Game with China by F. William Engdahl After the tragic events of July 5 in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in China, it would be useful to look more closely into the actual role of the US Government’s ”independent“ NGO, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED). All indications are that the US Government, once more acting through its “private” Non-Governmental Organization, the NED, is massively intervening into the internal politics of China. The reasons for Washington’s intervention into Xinjiang affairs seems to have little to do with concerns over alleged human rights abuses by Beijing authorities against Uyghur people. It seems rather to have very much to do with the strategic geopolitical location of Xinjiang on the Eurasian landmass and its strategic importance for China’s future economic and energy cooperation with Russia, Kazakhastan and other Central Asia states of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The major organization internationally calling for protests in front of Chinese embassies around the world is the Washington, D.C.-based World Uyghur Congress (WUC). The WUC manages to finance a staff, a very fancy website in English, and has a very close relation to the US Congress-funded NED. According to published reports by the NED itself, the World Uyghur Congress receives $215,000.00 annually from the National Endowment for Democracy for “human rights research and advocacy projects.” The president of the WUC is an exile Uyghur who describes herself as a “laundress turned millionaire,” Rebiya Kadeer, who also serves as president of the Washington D.C.-based Uyghur American Association, another Uyghur human rights organization which receives significant funding from the US Government via the National Endowment for Democracy. The NED was intimately involved in financial support to various organizations behind the Lhasa ”Crimson Revolution“ in March 2008, as well as the Saffron Revolution in Burma/Myanmar and virtually every regime change destabilization in eastern Europe over the past years from Serbia to Georgia to Ukraine to Kyrgystan to Teheran in the aftermath of the recent elections. Allen Weinstein, who helped draft the legislation establishing NED, was quite candid when he said in a published interview in 1991: "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA." The NED is supposedly a private, non-government, non-profit foundation, but it receives a yearly appropriation for its international work from the US Congress. The NED money is channelled through four “core foundations”. These are the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, linked to Obama’s Democratic Party; the International Republican Institute tied to the Republican Party; the American Center for International Labor Solidarity linked to the AFL-CIO US labor federation as well as the US State Department; and the Center for International Private Enterprise linked to the US Chamber of Commerce. The salient question is what has the NED been actively doing that might have encouraged the unrest in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, and what is the Obama Administration policy in terms of supporting or denouncing such NED-financed intervention into sovereign politics of states which Washington deems a target for pressure? The answers must be found soon, but one major step to help clarify Washington policy under the new Obama Administration would be for a full disclosure by the NED, the US State Department and NGO’s linked to the US Government, of their involvement, if at all, in encouraging Uyghur separatism or unrest. Is it mere coincidence that the Uyghur riots take place only days following the historic meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization? Uyghur exile organizations, China and Geopolitics On May 18 this year, the US-government’s in-house “private” NGO, the NED, according to the official WUC website, hosted a seminal human rights conference entitled East Turkestan: 60 Years under Communist Chinese Rule, along with a curious NGO with the name, the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organisation (UNPO). The Honorary President and founder of the UNPO is one Erkin Alptekin, an exile Uyghur who founded UNPO while working for the US Information Agency’s official propaganda organization, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty as Director of their Uygur Division and Assistant Director of the Nationalities Services. Alptekin also founded the World Uyghur Congress at the same time, in 1991, while he was with the US Information Agency. The official mission of the USIA when Alptekin founded the World Uyghur Congress in 1991 was “to understand, inform, and influence foreign publics in promotion of the [USA] national interest…” Alptekin was the first president of WUC, and, according to the official WUC website, is a “close friend of the Dalai Lama.” Closer examination reveals that UNPO in turn to be an American geopolitical strategist’s dream organization. It was formed, as noted, in 1991 as the Soviet Union was collapsing and most of the land area of Eurasia was in political and economic chaos. Since 2002 its Director General has been Archduke Karl von Habsburg of Austria who lists his (unrecognized by Austria or Hungary) title as “Prince Imperial of Austria and Royal Prince of Hungary.” Among the UNPO principles is the right to ‘self-determination’ for the 57 diverse population groups who, by some opaque process not made public, have been admitted as official UNPO members with their own distinct flags, with a total population of some 150 million peoples and headquarters in the Hague, Netherlands. UNPO members range from Kosovo which “joined” when it was fully part of then Yugoslavia in 1991. It includes the “Aboriginals of Australia” who were listed as founding members along with Kosovo. It includes the Buffalo River Dene Nation indians of northern Canada. The select UNPO members also include Tibet which is listed as a founding member. It also includes other explosive geopolitical areas as the Crimean Tartars, the Greek Minority in Romania, the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria (in Russia), the Democratic Movement of Burma, and the gulf enclave adjacent to Angola and the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and which just happens to hold rights to some of the world’s largest offshore oil fields leased to Condi Rice’s old firm, Chevron Oil. Further geopolitical hotspots which have been granted elite recognition by the UNPO membership include the large section of northern Iran which designates itself as Southern Azerbaijan, as well as something that calls itself Iranian Kurdistan. In April 2008 according to the website of the UNPO, the US Congress’ NED sponsored a “leadership training” seminar for the World Uyghur Congress (WUC) together with the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization. Over 50 Uyghurs from around the world together with prominent academics, government representatives and members of the civil society gathered in Berlin Germany to discuss “Self-Determination under International Law.” What they discussed privately is not known. Rebiya Kadeer gave the keynote address. The suspicious timing of the Xinjiang riots The current outbreak of riots and unrest in Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang in the northwest part of China, exploded on July 5 local time. According to the website of the World Uyghur Congress, the “trigger” for the riots was an alleged violent attack on June 26 in China’s southern Guangdong Province at a toy factory where the WUC alleges that Han Chinese workers attacked and beat to death two Uyghur workers for allegedly raping or sexually molesting two Han Chinese women workers in the factory. On July 1, the Munich arm of the WUC issued a worldwide call for protest demonstrations against Chinese embassies and consulates for the alleged Guangdong attack, despite the fact they admitted the details of the incident were unsubstantiated and filled with allegations and dubious reports. According to a press release they issued, it was that June 26 alleged attack that gave the WUC the grounds to issue their worldwide call to action. On July 5, a Sunday in Xinjiang but still the USA Independence Day, July 4, in Washington, the WUC in Washington claimed that Han Chinese armed soldiers seized any Uyghur they found on the streets and according to official Chinese news reports, widespread riots and burning of cars along the streets of Urumqi broke out resulting over the following three days in over 140 deaths. China’s official Xinhua News Agency said that protesters from the Uighur Muslim ethnic minority group began attacking ethnic Han pedestrians, burning vehicles and attacking buses with batons and rocks. "They took to the street...carrying knives, wooden batons, bricks and stones," they cited an eyewitness as saying. The French AFP news agency quoted Alim Seytoff, general secretary of the Uighur American Association in Washington, that according to his information, police had begun shooting "indiscriminately" at protesting crowds. Two different versions of the same events: The Chinese government and pictures of the riots indicate it was Uyghur riot and attacks on Han Chinese residents that resulted in deaths and destruction. French official reports put the blame on Chinese police “shooting indiscriminately.” Significantly, the French AFP report relies on the NED-funded Uyghur American Association of Rebiya Kadeer for its information. The reader should judge if the AFP account might be motivated by a US geopolitical agenda, a deeper game from the Obama Administration towards China’s economic future. Is it merely coincidence that the riots in Xinjiang by Uyghur organizations broke out only days after the meeting took place in Yakaterinburg, Russia of the member nations of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, as well as Iran as official observer guest, represented by President Ahmadinejad? Over the past few years, in the face of what is seen as an increasingly hostile and incalculable United States foreign policy, the major nations of Eurasia—China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan have increasingly sought ways of direct and more effective cooperation in economic as well as security areas. In addition, formal Observer status within SCO has been given to Iran, Pakistan, India and Mongolia. The SCO defense ministers are in regular and growing consultation on mutual defense needs, as NATO and the US military command continue provocatively to expand across the region wherever it can. The Strategic Importance of Xinjiang for Eurasian Energy Infrastructure There is another reason for the nations of the SCO, a vital national security element, to having peace and stability in China’s Xinjiang region. Some of China’s most important oil and gas pipeline routes pass directly through Xinjiang province. Energy relations between Kazkhstan and China are of enormous strategic importance for both countries, and allow China to become less dependent on oil supply sources that can be cut off by possible US interdiction should relations deteriorate to such a point. Kazak President Nursultan Nazarbayev paid a State visit in April 2009 to Beijing. The talks concerned deepening economic cooperation, above all in the energy area, where Kazkhastan holds huge reserves of oil and likely as well of natural gas. After the talks in Beijing, Chinese media carried articles with such titles as “"Kazakhstani oil to fill in the Great Chinese pipe." The Atasu-Alashankou pipeline to be completed in 2009 will provide transportation of transit gas to China via Xinjiang. As well Chinese energy companies are involved in construction of a Zhanazholskiy gas processing plant, Pavlodar electrolyze plant and Moynakskaya hydro electric station in Kazakhstan. According to the US Government’s Energy Information Administration, Kazakhstan’s Kashagan field is the largest oil field outside the Middle East and the fifth largest in the world in terms of reserves, located off the northern shore of the Caspian Sea, near the city of Atyrau. China has built a 613-mile-long pipeline from Atasu, in northwestern Kazakhstan, to Alashankou at the border of China's Xinjiang region which is exporting Caspian oil to China. PetroChina’s ChinaOil is the exclusive buyer of the crude oil on the Chinese side. The pipeline is a joint venture of CNPC and Kaztransoil of Kazkhstan. Some 85,000 bbl/d of Kazakh crude oil flowed through the pipeline during 2007. China’s CNPC is also involved in other major energy projects with Kazkhstan. They all traverse China’s Xinjiang region. In 2007 CNPC signed an agreement to invest more than $2 billion to construct a natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan to China. That pipeline would start at Gedaim on the border of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan and extend 1,100 miles through Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan to Khorgos in China's Xinjiang region. Turkmenistan and China have signed a 30-year supply agreement for the gas that would fill the pipeline. CNPC has set up two entities to oversee the Turkmen upstream project and the development of a second pipeline that will cross China from the Xinjiang region to southeast China at a cost of some $7 billion. As well, Russia and China are discussing major natural gas pipelines from eastern Siberia through Xinjiang into China. Eastern Siberia contains around 135 Trillion cubic feet of proven plus probable natural gas reserves. The Kovykta natural gas field could give China with natural gas in the next decade via a proposed pipeline. During the current global economic crisis, Kazakhstan received a major credit from China of $10 billion, half of which is for oil and gas sector. The oil pipeline Atasu-Alashankou and the gas pipeline China-Central Asia, are an instrument of strategic 'linkage' of central Asian countries to the economy China. That Eurasian cohesion from Russia to China across Central Asian countries is the geopolitical cohesion Washington most fears. While they would never say so, growing instability in Xinjiang would be an ideal way for Washington to weaken that growing cohesion of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization nations.
I'm saying that you're cherry picking because you seem to only want to apply this "ownership in the past" as a raison d'tre for contemporary PRC claims to territory, without regard to the fact that if you do that, other nations can likewise make similar historic claims on present Chinese territory. Using your kind of logic then, China needs to give Xian back to Tibet, and Taiwan back to Japan. Then China needs to give all of itself back to Mongolia, because the Mongol people once captured and reunited what was left of China (after the Tang Dynasty fell apart) under the banner of a greater Mongolian Empire. At that time China, as a sovereign nation and legal political entity, had ceased to exist. Many countries fall apart, never to be reconstituted again. When China fell apart, it was conquered by the people from what is now known as Mongolia. It was only through the luck of history, the poor management of the Yuan (Mongols) and the resilience of Chinese people and culture, that the Chinese ethnic identity was able to rise to the fore and subsume their invaders, despite the fact that they had been already wholly defeated. The PRC isn't a country who's political identity extends into the past by thousands of years; for you to consider it so is academically dishonest. Chinese ethnic culture however, is the product of thousands of years of civilization; that is what makes the Chinese people great. As for your comment that the PRC is a communist country that doesn't pretend to be anything else? Just look at what it tells its people, regarding fairness and rights of the people; when the Chinese people calls them on it, they get beaten down. Inotherwords, the PRC government doesn't walk its talk. If it came out and stated plainly that they were dishonest, and have of goal of remaining in power at the expense of the Chinese people; then fine, they'll be brutal but honest. However, currently, they're brutal AND dishonest. Whether or not the US upholds its claims of being humanitarian or not essentially doesn't matter to the Chinese people at all. The ones I see subjugating the Chinese people is the PRC government, not the US. Communism has little to do with it. If the PRC actually followed their communist rules and laws honestly the PRC would be a great place. However, they only call themselves communists; but act more like La Cosa Nostra. Note to Dragon Slayer: What is a Shemale and what does it have to do with this debate? By injection of such a term, you're belittling the quality of your own argument. I was genuinely reading your reply until I got to that term, which is very obviously an attack directed at her person and not on her position. At that point, I seriously questioned the value of continuing. ********** A little additional background into the factory riot that started the incident in the first place: As I'm reading this article, I can't believe how much it sounds like the old Jim Crow South. The US struggles to this day with the realities that a separate but equal system doesn't work. Personally, I believe the owner of the original spark that stated this (the disgruntled former worker who started the false rumor) should be punished severely, as his rumor already caused many innocents (Han and Uigher) to die. If the government wants minorities to get along with the majority in China, it really needs to take a look at the proactive and affirmative actions that other nations have undertaken. Moreover, it has to at least give minorities equal treatment under the law; punishment for deadly rioting should be equally severe for Chinese and Uigher alike. If one side is seen as only getting a slap on the wrist, then they may as well not punish anyone, as unequal punishment would be just another reason to prolong the riots. Given that this is the PRC, the police obviously have certain political advantages here. If the PRC government announced that anyone, and I mean anyone, seen walking in a crowd with a weapon (stick, baton, rod, staff, bludgeon, club; whatever...) in his or her hand, may be shot at distance by police snipers without advanced warning; I would suspect that a lot of the passion in both sides would dissipate.
yeah.. she is pretty much a smart-fool.. using the death of her countrymen to boost her own interest and wealth... here is where she fakes the picture of the Xinjiang riot.. claiming this is the scene of crack down.. while in reality this took place in Hubei.. far from xinjiang... LMAO! http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-07/09/content_8403394.htm Ralph, stop pretending to be an angel cause you're not! LMAO! When negiqboyz foul-mouthed just about everyone in this thread Ralph didn't seemed to mind and probably supported his derogatory comments. LOL But when Dragonslayer uses the word "shemale" he takes every desperately opportunity and launches himself at him to defend a terrorist...just becuz Dragonslayer is not with Ralph. Yeah, you're a true Christian there buddy. LMAO! Here's one of the few foul-mouthed comment negiqboyz made:
Like I asked you before, why don't you show me PROOF that "continuous rule" is the only qualification for sovereignty for a piece of land?? And how many countries in the world today has NOT been invaded by foreigners in the past?? Like I said before, Greece for example was invaded by foreign powers for at least TWO THOUSAND YEARS!! So using your logic did Greece cease to exist for two thousand years in it's history?? lol Care to actually answer the above questions? China's terrority is today recognised by many international bodies like the UN for example, and by nearly every country in the world, and many of China's historial and geographical sites (including some in Tibet) are listed as world hertitage sites!! Read these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Heritage_Sites_in_China http://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/cn Hmmm... I wonder should I believe in the words of the above international bodies or should I believe in the ramblings of a guy who's argument is getting dumber and dumber?? LOL Wow thats a hard decision LOL Yawwnn, yeah yeah the Chinese govt is the only government that lies in the world right?? Yeah it was the Chinese govt that lied about WMDs in Iraq too right?? Happy now?? now please go back to burying your head in the sand lol Yeah I agree that Hans and Uighers should be punished equally (especially those who actually took part in killings) As regards to the person who spread the rumours, he's presently being held by the police and awaiting punishment.
