there are two types of linguistics and linguists 1. prescriptive linguistics - "this is how this lang should be" 2. descriptive linguistics - "this is how the language is and it is perfectly alright becos it is serving its function" ribsandbbqbeef is definitely a precriptive linguist, and it seems most of the posters is tending this way personally, i'm a bit of both. I am quite annoyed at ppl who who get annoyed at ppl who can't speak the "right" way. The fact of the matter is, languages change all the time and there is very little anyone can do to stop that change. E.g English - today's english is so different from old english that it is incomprehensible to today's speakers. BTW old english is not middle english (ie shakespeare), old english is more older. Even when you talk about "Cantonese", i don't know cos i havn't studied the history of cantonese, but i'm pretty sure it has changed dramatically over the years without most ppl noticing. What was "cantonese" then is surely not the " cantonese" most ppl know today. Besides, changes in a language in the ONE place, the same 'language' also evolve differently according to place and historical factors. E.g wars, migration, technology, politics...etc.. The "cantonese" spoken by those in Canton in mainland china are different to those spoken in HK. Isn't this a fact? So who is to say who is right? Who has the right to say which language is better? Ultimiately, though, people who have the most influence and power are the ones making the decisions (conciously or not). I think this is called Hegemony. This influence remains very much undetected because the influence is seen or experienced as "natural".... but really it is really just one way of doing things but that way just happens to be a particular way belonging to certain groups in society. I'm not against prescriptive linguistics, it is important to teach a language correctly, but i merely feel that people should be harrassed based on the fact that their language is different from the accepted "norm". They are not wrong according to descriptive linguistics, but different. Yes, that difference can cause stigma and prejudice, and may disadvantage these ppl in life, limiting their life chances. I don't feel this is fair or the way it should be. So in a nutshell, yes do teach a language correctly, but don't discrimate ppl based on language. Languages change no matter what u do. thanks for listening.
I prefer my own Dutch version and it seems that the first posters who replied on my post undertood it fully. Yeah I agree with the hegemony part, but I believe most people here are talking about the 'lazy sound' and it really does sound like one is having a speech impediment if they for example pronounce [Ngoo] (cow) as [Aow] And teachers and other people in high profile positions keep making these mistakes and aren't setting a good example for the newer generations.
I guess the "lazy sound" can be considered as a change in the language that may become the "norm" in later years, esp. considering people who are 'supposed' to speak 'correctly' are making these 'mistakes'. So who is judging that these people are making these ''mistakes"? What 'cantonese' are we talking about? The misconception about 'lazy sound' (and thats the problem with this name) is that, in most cases, it is not really the speaker being lazy in their speech. This is evident in the fact that most of these ppl don't realise they are doing it. Some of the posters have indicated this. In addition, so many people come from so many (and often complex) backgrounds, the variety in speech should be expected (even within the one language). People should definitely not be demonised due to some slight differences in their language. Eg. in the first video where the poor guy comes up to the 3 girls. He was portrayed as some monster who needed to be tamed. Those girls were shocking to say the least. They were disrespectful to the guy. They obviously understood what the guy meant even though he didn't say it the way they thought he should have said it, yet they looked at him as if he was some strange creature. Yes, i know it was a demonstration, but it reflects how some ppl feel. In years time, ppl will look back at this, laugh and say, "why did we bother?" In regards to being treated by westerners and not getting any slack. Just because they set a bad example, doesn't mean we have to follow. Esp. considering how some of us are talking about setting good examples on how to speak cantonese 'properly'. So are we following the bad examples of those who don't cut some slack for us?
@honkiebonkie: Your post is shortened for length reason. While I concur with you on the hegemony of the language(s). I have my reserve on the natural progression of language. Yes, languages change. But does that mean that in a few generations mushrooms should be called by multiple sounds (which supposedly refer to the same characters) because some people cannot pronounce it properly and pass that mispronounciation to later generations? Just because lazy sound is adopted as a norm (because the majority of population is making the same mistake) does not make it the proper way to speak. And the dictionary and pinyin is there is prevent this from happening too fast too soon. The proper one? Just because everyone is making the mistake does not make the mistake right. A mistake is a mistake is a mistake. People don't care doesn't mean they are not wrong, just mean they are lazy to make it right. The hostility towards wrongly pronounced words is not there because it is a demostration, I personally do that all the time (and my friends do that to me too). I personally don't find anything wrong in being strict on pronouciations. It helps the speaker to be understood. I personally found lazy sound or whatnot annoying because I CANNOT understand what they are trying to say. Perfect example was Twins playing in one of their early films, I NEED to read the subtitles to understand what they are saying. So does that mean the way Twins talk should be adopted regardless of the proper sound? In which case, we may as well just start a Twins language base on Cantonese right? It will become a problem because... If we solely let the progression/growth of language roam freely without interference, we will very soon be unable to understand each other because there is no "proper" way to pronounce a word (or people do not pay any attention to it) and just jibberish our meaning out.
I agree that it is okay to maintain languages. Languages are valuable things that once lost cannot be refound easily. There are ppl devoted to preserving languages, esp. old and rare ones, or even discovering lost languages. "Correct" ways of pronounciation should be adhered to if possible, but not at the expense of negatively treating ppl. Eventually, though, a mispronounciation now, IF it grows to be accepted as the norm , will become the accepted pronouciation. If you look at english, the way words are spelt, most words these days are not prounounced as they are spelt. ie. their spelling does not correspond to their pronunciation. Believe it or not, english words used to prounounced exactly how it was spelt, until they decided to freeze the spellings of words because the spellings of words were in consistent and changed all the time. Since the freezing of the spellings of words, though, the prounciations did not freeze, and therefore, that's the reason why the spellings don't correspond with the pronounciation. This reminds me there is also other factors to language change: foreign influence e.g TONNES of English words originated from france, but i guess that's another topic. how do u define "proper way to speak"? By the dictionary? Even dictionaries vary in terms of their pronunciations, as well as other features. But yes u r right about dictionaries slowing things down, because ppl can refer to it to correct themselves. If dictionaries were always correct, then why do they need to revise them all the time, and why are there so many different publishers of dictionaries, why are there so many kinds of dictionaries? Yes, a mistake is a mistake, unless it is a 'mistake'. i'm sure everyone's personal responce to it can be very different. That's fine, i just want ppl to understand that differences in language is there for a reason, and that it is, nearly in all cases, not the result of personal choice. The growth of a language or change in a language, is a very complex process, but it does not happen easily or quickly. Don't worry, even if we don't interfere actively, language has its way of working things out. If we have words that ppl don't understand, the chance of it being adopted is pretty low.
Relatively speaking, Chinese/Cantonese borrow less from foreign language because it did not went through phases of occupation (French ruling England was one of the reason why English borrow so heavily from French) There are a few words which are borrowed/translated from other languages such as humour and logic... Verious types of dictionary, editions and such, are due to the vast vocabulary in Chinese. Of course, the pronounciation key would depend on where the publisher is located (Mandarin vs. Pu tong hua vs. Cantonese), as for kinds, like English, we have abridged dictionary, complete dictionary, liguistic dictionary etc. Does that mean they are not in accordance of each other? Each type of these dictionary has a specific target audience... Maybe I AM pretty picky about pronounciation, but when someone tell me there's no difference between "o sik zhou fen" and "ngor sik zhou fan" (as for "I have had dinner"/我食左飯) and decided that they don't need to pronounce the "ngor" properly, I think it's a personal choice. The sad thing is that because of the media, people start to take Twins' (or any number of celebrity) lazy tongue/mispronounciation for granted and decided that THAT is the proper way to speak... =_=bbb I hope I don't have to witness the deterioration of Cantonese in my life time... I can only hope...
I thought many cantonese terms are borrowed from english. Words like taxi, sandwich, bus, salmon, etc.
It is TRANSLATED, and the translation went official before a million different "variations" can spring from one single word... It's like one wouldn't call taxi anything but "dik si" (translation wise, I know there's "gai ching che" or whatnot) And I know Chinese/Cantonese borrow from English, but relatively speaking, our vocabulary contains less borrowed words (than English borrowed from French or whichever foreign language)
that's true. i'm no chinese historian, but i think we have to take into account the size of china and complex and deep history of the people living in this wide area to truly understand the complexity of languages in china. true.... but i was pointing out how the same kind of dictionary can have many variants in terms of their entires for a single word ( ie. definitions and pronunciations etc.) or how ONE publisher for the ONE dictionary keep republishing and updating their dictionaries. This reflects the changing nature of language, and shows how even dictionaries evolve to match or correspond with changing pattterns of language use. Being picky as a personal choice is fine, just don't persecute those who do otherwise. <---just a general statement, not aimed at anyone, and maybe 'persecute' is too strong a word. But if you try to rid of ppl who speak in a certain way then i guess it is a form of persecution. Its a bit like saying, "you speak funny, i don't like you, and i will treat u differently" The media is a power instiution that has great influence. Unfortunately, the influence is not very positive most of the time.
OMG LOL 我哪理 我好開開生生 I can’t believe nick said that guy got like 70/80% right when he was singing… HAHA those girls were like 10 times better although all the words they couldn’t sing right were still in mando haha
we can't speak perfect chiense cuz we arent born in asia, plus many ppl don't have chiense as their first language and most of the chiense is based on their mother's tongue, so if they have accents, like hoi fong wah, they have an amusing accent
It doesn't matter whether you are born in Asia or not. What matters the most are the people around you speaking correct cantonese. So for people born overseas, then parents and other chinese friends will be the greatest influence.
are you refer to grammar or accent?? if is accent, then it does matter more coz abc ppl just don't have the correct accent.. grammar, well.. ppl should just have good grammar lor
I was referring to both grammar and accent. I don't know any abc people, so I don't know their accents. I guess there needs to be a well-established chinese community for people born overseas in order for them to have correct grammar and accent.
i can understand the grammar and the lazy tone.. but not the accent.. coz abc ppl grow up to speak english more in america.. even though they can speak properly and good enough to understand, is very hard to have the accent perfect like hk ppl still live in hk
when u are young, it is much easier to pick-up / learn languages the language(s) u learn before ur 12 is considered ur "native language" living in another country where the primary language is not cantonese, where contact and use of cantonese is limited, no way you will have an accent / grammar etc that matches the those if you lived in a cantonese speaking country, especially if you were relatively young this is true even if you speak it at home, bcos u r learning another language aswell, eg. english at school
It would depends on the people one communicates with (in Cantonese). Because I've had friends whose parents are very strict about proper Chinese/Cantonese and they have the PERFECT Cantonese I've ever heard even though they are CBC, both grammar wise and accent wise (and no lazy tongue!) Greatest influence... What comes to mind is the pathetically spoken Cantonese by people in the entertainment business of Hong Kong =_=b You have to learn grammar from somewhere still... It didn't just fell from the sky... Really? I would say my English is close to fluency (and native level) while I didn't use it full time until past age 12... But I guess there's always exceptions...
I guess that means both cantonese and english are my native languages. I came to Canada when I was very young and my cantonese accent is no different from people raised in HK.
